2011 EC300 Brakes Sucks! Please Help

[Rampart]

Hi all
First of all I want to note the poor performance of the front brake - you have to apply a very great effort to control the wheel on downhill - the arm is very quickly tired.

Can someone tell me, maybe there are some activities that you need to perform to improve the performance of the brakes?

The second problem - the rear pads are quickly erased, and I began to suspect that the caliper does not move away from the pads, and indeed - even when I did not use the rear brake - brake disc was hot!

 

[Anders]

Sounds like you need to clean and possibly rebuild your calipers.

 

[swazi_matt]

On the front it is also worth replacing the banjo brake light switch with a normal banjo bolt (take it as a sample because the thread is not common)

 

[Moto7man]

There was a thread on this forum regarding the bleed nipple on the front caliper. Someone had a bent bleed nipple that was allowing air into the front line. The owner had replaced everything else, lines, master cylinder etc until he found this as the problem.

Your front brake on that model bike should be super strong, I know because I have the same bike.

If you are wearing out rear pads, then you need to fully compress your caliper piston and make sure the caliper piston is not seized or stuck.Then make sure the caliper can freely move on the pins. If the caliper piston is seized or if the caliper is not moving on the pins that is your problem.

Make sure that you press the rear brake pedal several times to push the pads back into the rotor or you won't have any brakes when you ride the bike!

 

[Rampart]

thank you all for reply, i will be looking for this problems. My friend has the same year bike, with even worst breaks, so maybe they are in much worst conditions...

 

[sneaky98gt]

There was a thread on this forum regarding the bleed nipple on the front caliper. Someone had a bent bleed nipple that was allowing air into the front line. The owner had replaced everything else, lines, master cylinder etc until he found this as the problem.

Hmm. That's very interesting; I haven't heard that.

I've had front brake issues with my 2011 EC250 since I bought it several months back. The brake has always just felt spongey; it's got plenty of power, but the feel isn't what it should be.

I started off by bleeding it, which helped a little. Then I did a full-blown fluid flush with brand new fluid, which again helped a little. Then I eliminated the pressure switch, which again helped a little.

I've bled the crap out of it, forwards and backwards, and it still doesn't feel right. It normally feels best right when I get done bleeding it, but within a few minutes of riding, it's right back as it was. As I said, it's got PLENTY of power; it'll lock the tire with ease if you really squeeze on it. But the feel isn't there; it never really "firms up". I get excellent braking pulling the lever, say, halfway to the grip, but if I keep pulling, it'll come all the way back and touch the grip.

I've got 2 Hondas with virtually the exact same Nissin brake system, and neither of those feel like this. They pull back some, get firm, and then you can't pull it back any further no matter how hard you try. So I'm quite confident I've still got a problem somewhere.

My latest hypothesis is that maybe the master isn't sealing like it's supposed to, and some fluid is seeping past the seals as I squeeze on it. But, this idea about the bleed nipple sounds interesting, and cheap to check. So I think I'm going to do that first and see how it goes.

 

[Zman]

Do you have a master cylinder that is marked 3/8 (in place of the 11mm or 10mm)? I had one come along with the KYB SSS YZ450f front end and had the same problem. In one year ( I think 2009) They reduced weight from the bike and used smaller master cylinder and slave cylinder piston diameters. The 3/8 give you high mechanical advantage but low flow which translated into a very mushy lever feel.

 

[SS109]

A simple trick I use when having problems bleeding a front brake is to zip-tie the front lever all the way down on the grip and leave overnight. It helps push the air out of the system and up to the master cylinder. If this doesn't get it firmer something else is wrong. Might be time for a new brake hose, master cylinder and/or caliper rebuild, or a fitting is leaking allowing air in to the system.

 

[sneaky98gt]

A simple trick I use when having problems bleeding a front brake is to zip-tie the front lever all the way down on the grip and leave overnight. It helps push the air out of the system and up to the master cylinder. If this doesn't get it firmer something else is wrong. Might be time for a new brake hose, master cylinder and/or caliper rebuild, or a fitting is leaking allowing air in to the system.

Yea, tried that on mine several times. Never has many any difference.

 

[SS109]

Yea, tried that on mine several times. Never has many any difference.

It's a common fix on Kawasaki's running Nissin brakes. If it doesn't fix it then something else is wrong IME.

 

[john r b]

Try back bleeding. from bottom to top.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Try back bleeding. from bottom to top.

It's a common fix on Kawasaki's running Nissin brakes. If it doesn't fix it then something else is wrong IME.

I concur.

I've bled it forwards and backwards, literally put quarts of fluid through it both ways. It seems better right after I do that, in the garage, but it could easily be a placebo. When I actually ride it, within a few minutes, I notice that it's right back like it was before (though, interestingly, it doesn't seem to get any worse over time). I'm confident that there's not any air in it, unless that bleed nipple is letting some back in. I still intend to swap that out sometime soon, since it'll be cheap, but the fact that it doesn't continue getting more mushy over time leads me to believe that's not the issue.

Let me ask this: when you squeeze on the lever really hard, like harder than you typically would to actually brake, does your caliper move / flex very much? It's not a ton, but mine definitely flexes a good bit. I try the same thing on the Nissin system on my XR400, and it flexes just a bit, but nowhere near as much as the Gasser. You have to look really hard on the Honda to see it move / flex, but it's easily noticeable on the GasGas.

I suppose if something is moving / flexing that isn't suppose to be, then this could be allowing the caliper piston to continue moving outward a little bit, and thus cause a less firm lever, right? Is this normal? What might cause this?

 

[Moto7man]

I concur.

I've bled it forwards and backwards, literally put quarts of fluid through it both ways. It seems better right after I do that, in the garage, but it could easily be a placebo. When I actually ride it, within a few minutes, I notice that it's right back like it was before (though, interestingly, it doesn't seem to get any worse over time). I'm confident that there's not any air in it, unless that bleed nipple is letting some back in. I still intend to swap that out sometime soon, since it'll be cheap, but the fact that it doesn't continue getting more mushy over time leads me to believe that's not the issue.

Let me ask this: when you squeeze on the lever really hard, like harder than you typically would to actually brake, does your caliper move / flex very much? It's not a ton, but mine definitely flexes a good bit. I try the same thing on the Nissin system on my XR400, and it flexes just a bit, but nowhere near as much as the Gasser. You have to look really hard on the Honda to see it move / flex, but it's easily noticeable on the GasGas.

I suppose if something is moving / flexing that isn't suppose to be, then this could be allowing the caliper piston to continue moving outward a little bit, and thus cause a less firm lever, right? Is this normal? What might cause this?

When the caliper is lined up with the disc rotor, you should not have hardly any movement at all.

On bleeding, go to your front brake lever and and back the adjustment screw all the way out. This will allow the master cylinder plunger to fill with fluid and push the air out of the system and firm up the lever feel.

 

[Thompo]

I concur.
........

Let me ask this: when you squeeze on the lever really hard, like harder than you typically would to actually brake, does your caliper move / flex very much? It's not a ton, but mine definitely flexes a good bit. I try the same thing on the Nissin system on my XR400, and it flexes just a bit, but nowhere near as much as the Gasser. You have to look really hard on the Honda to see it move / flex, but it's easily noticeable on the GasGas.

I have been struggling with my front brake on my 2011 too.

Its been bled forwards/reverse/on the bike/ off the bike etc with both DOT4 and 5.1.
100% no air in the system.

My Master cylinder is 11mm Ive tried my 2011mc and friends 2005mc and feels the same.

As you have noted, when pulling the lever excessively hard you can see the caliper flex.

I had CNC aftermarket levers, ive found the standard lever to give better feel and as previously mentioned fit a solid banjo rather than brake switch to firm it up slightly.

As for the rear both my bike and my friends 05 needed rear calipers.
The solid side (opposite piston) has either worn or been bent over time leading to the pads (and disc) wearing like this /| rather than parallel ||.

I noticed this slighty on the front too when swapping pads last night

EDIT# Pic of rear caliper attached. Mine was very badly worn, might have been run with pads on the wrong side or something (previous owners spanner work was woeful!)
Mates 05 was similar but to a much lesser extent.

 

[sneaky98gt]

I have been struggling with my front brake on my 2011 too.

Its been bled forwards/reverse/on the bike/ off the bike etc with both DOT4 and 5.1.
100% no air in the system.

My Master cylinder is 11mm Ive tried my 2011mc and friends 2005mc and feels the same.

As you have noted, when pulling the lever excessively hard you can see the caliper flex.

I had CNC aftermarket levers, ive found the standard lever to give better feel and as previously mentioned fit a solid banjo rather than brake switch to firm it up slightly.

As for the rear both my bike and my friends 05 needed rear calipers.
The solid side (opposite piston) has either worn or been bent over time leading to the pads (and disc) wearing like this /| rather than parallel ||.

I noticed this slighty on the front too when swapping pads last night

EDIT# Pic of rear caliper attached. Mine was very badly worn, might have been run with pads on the wrong side or something (previous owners spanner work was woeful!)
Mates 05 was similar but to a much lesser extent.

I'm glad you brought this back up, because I forgot to post up my findings.

First off, a new bleed nipple made zero difference. I'm still quite confident that I've never had any air in the system.

Secondly, I got around to measuring the caliper flex. I was seeing around 0.015" of flex when I squeezed the lever all the way to the bars (that's about 0.4mm for y'all metric folk), which was a lot in my opinion.

I checked my XR400R with a very similar Nissin brake system, and didn't see more than 0.002"-0.003" (0.05-0.075 mm). That's a pretty sizable difference in the two.

Upon closer inspection, I realized that the two calipers mounted in the exact same fashion, so I decided to swap them. Having both of them side-by-side, the reason for the additional flex became obvious. See the pictures below.

So with the XR caliper fitted on the EC250, and everything bled properly, I checked the flex again and saw about 0.005" (0.125mm). A very marked improvement, but still not quite as good as the XR. A closer look at the master cylinders gave me a reasonable explanation: the distance between the pivot bolt and piston is about 25% smaller on the GG than the XR, which means that the lever has more leverage on the GG.

Real world riding results? Noticeable improvement. It's still not as firm as what I'm used to riding. That said, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it, just that it's different. After riding it for a while and getting used to it, and then riding friends' bikes, I've actually really come to like it. It has more than enough power to lock the tire and throw you over the bars with a good 2-finger squeeze, but it has a very wide modulation range in the middle, compared to some friends' bikes (ahem, orange ones) that transition from "off" to "throw you over the bars" with very small changes in lever force.

I also noticed that the pads / rotor were wearing at a bit of an angle, almost certainly due to the abnormally large amount of flex in the caliper. This probably accounts for some of the lack of firmness that I still feel today even after putting a more rigid caliper on. I plan on replacing the rotor whenever I wear out the pads, probably sometime later this year.

 

[Thompo]

I think I read somewhere else that the newer more compact caliper was fitted to a number of brands around the same time to save weight and would explain a bit of the flex issue.

If you have swapped the MC over, check the bore, I had a 1/2" (12.7mm) from China vs 11mm standard, brake felt firm (wooden) but performed poorly with the 1/2" MC.

Piston Dia of the Caliper may also have changed, your XR caliper has 27mm pistions, I think the newer GG caliper is 25mm (was on rear, never checked front).
The reduced dia of both the MC and Caliper pistons equates to a much higher clamping force that could emphasis the flex and add to "soft" lever feel.

My latest setup is standard caliper and MC, brake switch removed, lever feel is ok-good.
Biggest improvement has been a set of S33 offroad pads, I had EBC reds on previously and had to really pull the lever to slowdown, which leads to flexing etc.
Brake is now amazing! plenty of modulation and enough to lock up/endo with 1 finger.
http://www.goldfrenusa.com/brake-pads-S33-offroad.htm
worth a shot

 

[ReaptheHeat]

Just picked up a 2012 EC 300. I am also suffering from the spongy front brake, as well as a little bit of front brake drag. I can easily grab the front all the way to the bar.

- Installed new pads
- Bled System, conventional and reverse
- Hung caliper overnight
- Zip tied lever to bar overnight
- Lever Adjustment screw has play and allows plunger to fully decompress

I checked the caliper pistons, they look clean with no corrosion. I did not pull them out of the caliper, but that might be next. One piston extends faster than the other, and requires me to push on the "good" piston while pumping to force the other one all the way out. Normal? They retract back slightly when off the lever. They take some force to push back in.

Can't find any leaks. My next step is to replace the brake switch banjo with a regular one.

Does anyone by chance know what master cylinder rebuild and brake caliper rebuild kits fit? Also might need a brake line.

I have a WR250R with the dual piston Nissin brakes and holy hell are they powerful compared to the GasGas!

Edit: Looks like I have a Nissin 11mm, and the 2005 Honda CR450 M/C rebuild kit will fit. Does anyone know what fits for the caliper rebuild?

 

[(F5)]

I just ordered a rebuild kit from powerhouse in uk but there willbe others. You need to pull the seals out and clean up the grooves. A brass brush on a dremel works well but otherwise just slow and wasy by hand. Yeah normal banjo bolt.


Check the brake retaining pin and sliding caliper pin. Again I think I got new from powerhouse, or might have been ebay. Look for oemcycles on ebay or just search, they often carry useful stuff and free shipping often.

 

[ReaptheHeat]

I just ordered a rebuild kit from powerhouse in uk but there willbe others. You need to pull the seals out and clean up the grooves. A brass brush on a dremel works well but otherwise just slow and wasy by hand. Yeah normal banjo bolt.


Check the brake retaining pin and sliding caliper pin. Again I think I got new from powerhouse, or might have been ebay. Look for oemcycles on ebay or just search, they often carry useful stuff and free shipping often.

Will be doing the M/C rebuild and new banjo Thursday. I'll update then. Really want to ride my "new" to me bike but unfortunately don't feel confident in the braking capabilities.

 

[ReaptheHeat]

I just ordered a rebuild kit from powerhouse in uk but there willbe others. You need to pull the seals out and clean up the grooves. A brass brush on a dremel works well but otherwise just slow and wasy by hand. Yeah normal banjo bolt.


Check the brake retaining pin and sliding caliper pin. Again I think I got new from powerhouse, or might have been ebay. Look for oemcycles on ebay or just search, they often carry useful stuff and free shipping often.

Just did M/C rebuild and zip tied overnight. Also replaced the lock nut with a washer to reduce freeplay. Feels acceptable but definitely desire more.

Bike is 7 years old. Maybe the SS brake line is busted/worn?