2019 300 EC starter issues

[Doc Brown]

2019 EC 300

Starter worked flawless, even with a smaller Shido battery. It never ever hesitated or had similar issues as the 2018's. On Saturday I rode with a friend and the starter worked flawless. After the ride I washed the bike as usual.

Today I changed the jetting and when I started the bike it hesitated almost exactly like in the well known video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXjFw9ghDE&ab_channel=MotoCenterPowersports

It just turned the engine half a turn then stopped and made a whining noise. I tried several times and always waited about 20 seconds between the starting attempts. As the voltage indicator on the dash said the battery is empty I measured the voltage which was 13.2 volts. However, I charged the battery and tried again once it was full. Funny that though the battery was full (13,75 volts), the dash showed it was empty. I tried to start several times, but always the same problem, the engine did not crank, just half a turn or so and the bike made weird whining noises as long as I kept the button pushed.

I then tried a different battery of my friends GP 300 but still no joy, just a few turns then a whining noise.

So i checked and cleaned all connections from battery to starter relay and so on, but this did not change anything. I decided to take the starter and bendix cover off. I realized that the starter was pretty hot when I took it off and it smelled like burnt metal. I held it against the engine and pushed the button and it spun. I cleaned the gears, bendix and starter shaft applied some fresh grease and put the starter motor back in. Needless to say it did not start.

I kicked it and it started immediately. I warmed up the engine riding up and down the road as I wanted to see if the starter motor will crank the engine when it was hot. When I tried to start the hot engine all I heard was a clicking noise from the starter relay. Close to kicking the fucking bike from the stand I went for a break.
When I had cooled down I measured continuity of the starter and immediately knew it was toast. The starter smelled like burnt copper and insulation paint. When i opened it the first thing that fell out was piece of copper wire.

Called my friend and asked him if I can take his starter for testing and he said no problem. So installed his starter, pushed the button and BINGO! It cranked the engine over like mad. I tried ten times. I removed the spark plug cap and tried and it cranked like mad. The starter did not even get warm though I let it crank for almost 10 seconds at least 6 times.

I am puzzled now as I can not imagine why my starter motor failed to crank the engine. A new starter motor is on order and should arrive on Monday. As far as I know a starter motor is either good or it doesn't work. In 45 years of wrenching I have never heard that a starter motor gets weaker.

What do you think? I'd be happy to hear your opinions.

 

[gg3]

Think I have the same starter motor issue.Are you ordering an OEM starter?

 

[Doc Brown]

Think I have the same starter motor issue.Are you ordering an OEM starter?

Yes, I have ordered a new OEM one. Bloody hell, they charge me USD 200.- including USD 18.- shipping costs.

I gave the old starter to a friend who thinks that a guy he knows can re-coil it. If it is less than USD 100.- I will let him do it and keep it as a spare.

In the other thread I saw that you have almost the same problem. What I do not get is why the starter didn't crank the engine over. The much older starter of my friends 2018 GP worked well in my bike. Never had trouble before...

Do you think that a starter motor can deteriorate???

 

[gg3]

Had a discussion with the auto electrician who had a look at my bike. They are as perplexed as we are. He load tested the new starter several times ,it spun up fast & plenty of torque. With the starter out, they turned the gear assembly with a screwdriver by hand & it rotates freely & easily. Put the starter back in & it does a half turn & locks up. After 2-3 goes gets very hot. With the plug out it cranks over with no issues. They are fairly sure the starter is ok. So now not sure where to look next.

 

[farmerj]

Doc - All I can add to this thread at this point is that both I and my dealer believe that multiple attempts at cranking the engine when it will not turn over is very hard on the starters. It's like the energy goes to the starter but can't be released, so builds up heat in the starter causing failure.

I will also add that we both believe that the GasGas starters are better/stronger than the aftermarket ones (I've tried a couple of cheaper ones).

My situation is exactly like that of gg3.

If starter motors can get weaker, that would answer a lot of questions!

Jeff

 

[Doc Brown]

Had a discussion with the auto electrician who had a look at my bike. They are as perplexed as we are. He load tested the new starter several times ,it spun up fast & plenty of torque. With the starter out, they turned the gear assembly with a screwdriver by hand & it rotates freely & easily. Put the starter back in & it does a half turn & locks up. After 2-3 goes gets very hot. With the plug out it cranks over with no issues. They are fairly sure the starter is ok. So now not sure where to look next.

I admit I am stumped because when I installed my friends OEM starter the problem was gone.
So I have now two possible problems

Either I have the 2018 blocking problem and that killed my starter when I tried to get the bike started. Or I had a problem with a knackered starter.
I'd prefer the latter but fear as soon as I have the new starter installed the problem will be back. Though it worked fine with my mates starter

Maybe you have heard that Rieju still assembles "our" GasGas model under the new name Rieju. I asked a dealer in Germany what they had changed except from the new plastics and stickers. And he said they changed the starter motor and allegedly it comes now from a Japanese company called MITSUBA. Unfortunately we don't know if the other internals (pinions, shafts) are still the same.
Till today I was unable to get a Rieju Spare Parts Manual.

 

[Doc Brown]

Doc - All I can add to this thread at this point is that both I and my dealer believe that multiple attempts at cranking the engine when it will not turn over is very hard on the starters. It's like the energy goes to the starter but can't be released, so builds up heat in the starter causing failure.

I will also add that we both believe that the GasGas starters are better/stronger than the aftermarket ones (I've tried a couple of cheaper ones).

My situation is exactly like that of gg3.

If starter motors can get weaker, that would answer a lot of questions!

Jeff

Thank you Jeff! I wonder why there is a 20amps fuse. Shouldn't that fuse avoid that the starter burns?
And why did the other starter work fine while mine seemed to be blocked?

There are some unanswered questions. I will now try to find out if a starter can weaken over time as this could be an explanation for my problem.

On the GP 2018 we have exactly the same problem as you and gg3

On the GP we polished the plain bearing in the small bendix cover where the trunnion of the bendix sits. We also added 3 gaskets as we thought the cover might apply pressure on the bendix creating friction. But that was not the case

 

[gg3]

Farmerj- Right on with the binding,overload,heat,starter damage.I am leaning towards the idea that the failing starter is a symptom of another problem,not the problem.Tonight I taped the bendix fully extended,put it in,put the old starter spline in & tried turning it by hand.Turns much easier than expected,not much load at all.But I am turning it very slow compared to a starter motor,so operated the kick by hand slowly.Everything turned without binding,real smooth?But as soon as I pushed the kick harder to normal operating speed,it jammed.On inspection the bendix was moving away from the pinion gear & locking crown to crown.Keep in mind the bendix cover is off so understandable.With the cover on slow rotation all good,fast rotation locked up.
With the cover off I held the bendix with a rag,pushing in & up to keep it tight against the pinion gear.Then hit the starter(don't try this kids),it turned over really well.Then locked again as I was concentrating on not getting my fingers dragged into the bendix. Not sure how to prove/disprove this is the problem.Will dwell on it.Sorry got lengthy.

 

[gg3]

https://youtu.be/-QsvLt9rT1s
short video of above waffle.

 

[Anders]

I wonder why there is a 20amps fuse. Shouldn't that fuse avoid that the starter burns?

I haven't measured, as I don't own an electric start GasGas. Nor have I checked the schematics. However, I presume the current through the starter will be much more than 20 A. So the fuse cannot be in the starter's circuit, I presume?
Or did I misunderstand?

Sent fra min YAL-L21 via Tapatalk

 

[Neil E.]

Farmerj- I am leaning towards the idea that the failing starter is a symptom of another problem, not the problem.

Interesting hypothesis. On the old estart system, my issue has always been engagement between the pinion and ring gear. Rarely would engage cold, but would almost always engage hot. So I use the estart as a "restarter".

As to the newer machines if find it hard to believe that the gears are cut so poorly that they bind under load. The only suggestion I have is to make sure there is reasonable end play on the bendix. The bendix cams open to do it's job of forcing gear engagement. The amount of travel is stopped by the clip ring on the shaft.

I'd cam the bendix open by hand and measure the overall length. Compare this to the space available between the case bosses. The idea being that the camming force is held by the clip ring. If shims were added to the bendix shaft, then some of the camming force would be applied against the case bosses instead of the clip ring. This would load the starter motor.

From all the talk of gear jamming I'd wonder if some part of the system was flexing enough to cause misalignment of the gears.

 

[Doc Brown]

I haven't measured, as I don't own an electric start GasGas. Nor have I checked the schematics. However, I presume the current through the starter will be much more than 20 A. So the fuse cannot be in the starter's circuit, I presume?
Or did I misunderstand?

Honestly, I am not good with electric things. All I know there is a 20amps fuse on the starter relay.

 

[gg3]

I have had the case off ,fully extended the bendix to check for any contact with the case & then measured case face to bendix gear & case face to ring gear (excluding gasket).Bendix seems close enough to fully engage & clear the case. In my case the starter worked fine for a long time before playing up.The gears on the pinion & bendix look in good condition & mesh together well. I think it is the pinion shaft & bendix shaft don't sit exactly parallel & close enough together. Possible wear at each end of the bendix shaft housing? As I have replaced the bendix cover with an AS3 cover it is most likely the shaft housing in the case. With bendix out & bendix cover off,& holding the starter button, the pinion shaft spins freely with no visible wobble, looks straight & true so am going to eliminate that shaft as the problem. So how do I check the bendix shaft housings align & bendix shaft runs parallel to the pinion? AAAHHHHH!!!

 

[Gasser Nate]

I haven't measured, as I don't own an electric start GasGas. Nor have I checked the schematics. However, I presume the current through the starter will be much more than 20 A. So the fuse cannot be in the starter's circuit, I presume?
Or did I misunderstand?

Sent fra min YAL-L21 via Tapatalk

Nope you are all over it. No starter circuit is fused, only the low current switching side is.

 

[Doc Brown]

This morning I received the new starter and too my surprise it is an OEM one and not a clone.

All I did was to lube the gear and o-ring and 5 minutes later it was installed. We had 6 degrees (43 F) this morning so it was pretty cool. I checked the voltage and that was good with 13.4 volts. Then I tried to start and: nothing except the well known clunking noise Tried 5 or 6 times then it turned the engine over once.

I then kick started it and let the engine warm up. When the engine is warm it starts without problems. It immediately fires up. I also tried to start it with the kill switch pressed to see if it cranks the engine. It does it perfectly but only when the engine is hot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEo2dD-e-zo&ab_channel=stevedaman

 

[Gasser Nate]

Can you post a video of what the starter is doing wrong when cold? In the video the starter is cranking like a champion, nothing wrong at all.
And also, a pretty big point, is that your fuel tap is not in the On position, it is slightly off. The fuel tap is not mounted parallel so the little pointer arrow needs to line up with the appropriate position. Wondering if it is slightly starving the bike of fuel?

 

[Doc Brown]

Can you post a video of what the starter is doing wrong when cold? In the video the starter is cranking like a champion, nothing wrong at all.
And also, a pretty big point, is that your fuel tap is not in the On position, it is slightly off. The fuel tap is not mounted parallel so the little pointer arrow needs to line up with the appropriate position. Wondering if it is slightly starving the bike of fuel?

The fuel tap plays no role, it works even when 10 degrees off. It might have an effect when riding thoug. But not when starting. But it has nothing to do with the starter not cranking.

Will try to make a video showing what it does when the engine is cold.

In the meantine, in this video you see exactly what my bike does when the engine is cold: (first 20 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXjFw9ghDE&t=60s&ab_channel=MotoCenterPowersports

 

[Gasser Nate]

Ok, a few things to test is obviously a load test on the battery. Dont even bother assuming, get it tested with a proper digital reader that gives an output in CCA.

Im sure you have installed proper leads including a dedicated earth from the battery to the starter, but I also added an additional earth from the coil mount where the main harness earths to and back to the battery. This helps with voltage drops and charge rates.

Now when you are testing the bike cold clip on a volt meter to the starter motor terminal and check for voltage there. Obviously you won?t get a full 12v but you should get around 9.5-10v. This should be present when the button is pressed and not drop out whilst pressed at all. If good you can eliminate starter switch low current side, solenoid etc. If not then further voltage drop tests will need to be conducted to determine where the problem lies.

If constant good voltage is present then the issue is with the starter motor itself or bearing/bendix related drag.

If I had the bike in front of me I?m confident I could diagnose it in under an hour. They aren?t a complicated system at all. Mine has over 120 hours of trouble free use, with a mates that has over 400 hours with only new brushes as replacements.

Sorry for the essay I just know it can be sorted and want to help!

 

[Doc Brown]

Can you post a video of what the starter is doing wrong when cold?

From today, engine cold. Battery at 13.3 volts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4O7tIDPpuE&ab_channel=stevedaman

 

[Doc Brown]

Ok, a few things to test is obviously a load test on the battery. Dont even bother assuming, get it tested with a proper digital reader that gives an output in CCA.

Im sure you have installed proper leads including a dedicated earth from the battery to the starter, but I also added an additional earth from the coil mount where the main harness earths to and back to the battery. This helps with voltage drops and charge rates.

Now when you are testing the bike cold clip on a volt meter to the starter motor terminal and check for voltage there. Obviously you won?t get a full 12v but you should get around 9.5-10v. This should be present when the button is pressed and not drop out whilst pressed at all. If good you can eliminate starter switch low current side, solenoid etc. If not then further voltage drop tests will need to be conducted to determine where the problem lies.

If constant good voltage is present then the issue is with the starter motor itself or bearing/bendix related drag.

If I had the bike in front of me I?m confident I could diagnose it in under an hour. They aren?t a complicated system at all. Mine has over 120 hours of trouble free use, with a mates that has over 400 hours with only new brushes as replacements.

Sorry for the essay I just know it can be sorted and want to help!

Don't worry Nate, all is good and I like technical essays.

I can't get the battery tested but I can tell you it is not battery related. I will not investigate in this direction anymore as it is a waste of time. Don't get me wrong I have tested this excessively and the problem is always the same whatever battery type is connected.
I even connected a professional start unit I can lend anytime from the car workshop next to my garage. With this you can start a tank. It has 1800 CA and 9000 amps.

All wires and leads are as from the factory I did not change anything on this bike. What I did is I sanded the paint off from the bracket where the starter is attached too and also where the ground cable is attached to this bracket. On the 2018 of my buddy I have installed much thicker cables from battery to starter relay and from there to starter and starter bracket, thicker positive lead and an additional lead from earth point at ignition coil back to the battery. It did not change anything on his bike.

I will again measure the voltage at the starter motor when the button is pressed and the starter spins. From my memory I had 11.3 volts there but I will do it again in the next few days and let you know the value. No clue when I will do this as I am pretty busy at the mo and my garage is 20 miles from where I live. But I have this on my list.