Coolant

[FFRDave]

I drained some coolant from my 2005 GG ec 250 and noticed that its a colarless opaque fluid rather than the green anti-freez I am used to. This is the first time I have drained coolant since the bike was new about 4 months ago.

Will the Green coolant work OK without doing any damage to my engine or the gaskets ?

Is there anything special about the clear fluid that was in it when new ?

 

[Dave]

I can't comment on what was in yours, but the green stuff works fine in mine.

 

[Eric K]

Since you don't know what it is, make sure you thoroughly flush the system. I have heard tales of woe (massive corrosion) resulting from mixing small amounts of incompatible coolants.

 

[FFRDave]

I called the dealership where I bought the GG ec 250, and they said that it was the anti-freez that came from the factory with the machine. They suggested that I flush it out and use whatever I want.

Now the question is.... What coolant do I want to use?

What coolant are you guys using?

Is Liquid Ice any good?

 

[GMP]

Flush it out good. Then use a coolant that DOES NOT contain silicate abrasives. Motorcycle specific coolants are fine as is TOYOTA brand automotive coolant. Engine Ice is fine, but not sure how much better than regular coolant. Prestone contains silicates unless they changed it recently. Mix 60/40 distilled water/coolant (unles pre mixed) for best heat transfer. Six capfulls of Red Line Water Wetter also helps heat transfer, but on the 2-stroke GG heat is not a problem. Run a KTM 1.4 bar cap. Last, you can scrap the expansion tank around the steering head for more room and reliability. The system should now be totally trouble free, even it the worst conditions.

 

[FFRDave]

I have a water softener that has an Ion exchanger.

I think what I will do is fill the waterjacket with just water, and then get the bike all warmed up, and after it cools, I will drain it. Then repete this process a couple times.

I would expect this "soft" water to have better heat transfer characteristics than "hard" water.

What EXACTLY does "Water Wetter" do? Does it take the minerals out of the water (effectively) "softening it?

 

[onebrow]

Water Wetter is a surfactant (spelling?). It breaks the surface tension of water/coolant allowing it to "wet" the surfaces of metal more effectively therefore removing more heat. Read this paper for a more thorough explanation. www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf .
GMP is correct. Use distilled water (no minerals) and silicate free coolant. Green coolant often (not all brands) contains silicate particles which are intended to abrasively remove cooling system build-ups of rust and scale. Silicate particles can harm the delicate aluminum surfaces inside your Gasser's cooling system. Use the KTM rad cap.

 

[cladoo]

I rode yesterday, 3.5 hr- 74km ride very technical and lots of climbing. A couple of long climbs my rad overflow was spewing. The other bikes didn't do this at all. Why would mine?

 

[jeffd]

You might want to provide a little more detail - like what were the other bikes? Do all of the other riders weigh about the same as you do?

Provided you don't outweigh your friends by 30 pounds. A couple of things come to mind...

1. You might be running a little lean - maybe your float level is low, etc.

2. If you have an older gasgas - they have a composite water pump impeller that can "decompose" and lose its effectiveness. LT-Racing makes a high volume metal impeller.

3. If you were riding with KTMs, they come with a higher pressure radiator cap.

4. Fuel mileage can vary 20% from rider to rider - you may have been more aggressive than your friends.

5. Are you running radiator guards that obstruct airflow through the radiators?

6. Maybe your water level was high to start off with - do you have an EC with the expansion tank?


jeff

 

[skid jackson]

Honda makesa 50 50 premix for bikes. Just dump it in. Dealer is close by so thats what i run. Make sure things like engine ice also act as anti freeze if you plan to keep it in there over the winter. Think i read somewhere that some are not.

 

[cladoo]

jeffd: 1. I don't think its lean a little rich if anything.
2. I have an '06 300EC
3. The other 5 bikes were KTMs, a 250XCW, two 300XCW's and two 450EXC's.
4.Fuel mileage is better now with a Clarke tank, at least it will go farther now!
5. I am running Flatland guards. But so did everyone else.
6. I checked the level before the ride and it was fine, a little low if anything. The bike has the expansion tank.
As far as weight goes I wasn't the heaviest guy there. I weigh about 215lbs.
Claude

 

[Eric K]

jeffd: 1. I don't think its lean a little rich if anything.
2. I have an '06 300EC
3. The other 5 bikes were KTMs, a 250XCW, two 300XCW's and two 450EXC's.
4.Fuel mileage is better now with a Clarke tank, at least it will go farther now!
5. I am running Flatland guards. But so did everyone else.
6. I checked the level before the ride and it was fine, a little low if anything. The bike has the expansion tank.
As far as weight goes I wasn't the heaviest guy there. I weigh about 215lbs.
Claude

While the GasGas and KTM radiators and Flatland guards are very similar, keep in mind the KTM has a different impeller and internal coolant flow characteristics. What you should consider is how to optimize your cooling system.

Here is what I suggest...

1) Improve airflow – dump the Flatland guards. I do not run flatland radiator guards for 2 reasons - 1) they notably restrict radiator airflow compared to stock and 2) they do not provide me adequate crash protection (I badly tweaked both rads in crashes on my ’01 while using Flatland guards in conjunction with GP braces. I now use modified CRD braces and custom sized GP braces. For more details on my radiator protection set up see my reply in…
http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131

2) Improve coolant flow – get the LTR impeller.

 

[cladoo]

I like the impeller idea but with the protection the Flatland guards give when it comes to branches I am not willing to take them off.
Claude

 

[barkeater]

That clear gel-goo is the stock coolant. Yucky stuff. Turns into slime after the first year. Get it out, corrodes everything. Even if you have a stock alloy impeller or the crappy bakelite one, ditch them for the LTR. It moves more coolant. Keep the coolant moving = keep the bike cooler.

I swiched to Evans waterless coolant. You have to run a pre-flush through to remove all traces of water before you put in the waterless.

I run Evans with Flatland guards and the LTR impeller in a 200 and the overflow has been empty all year. It's been 80+ on some of the rides in very tight forest singletrack. I also run the stock GG cap. It runs a wee bit hotter with the waterless compared to 50/50, but it does not overheat at all now. The engine temp is very consistant across the various extremes in riding conditions since the switch.

Only drawback to waterless - if you leak, you can't steal from your camelbak.

 

[Eric K]

Even if you have a stock alloy impeller or the crappy bakelite one, ditch them for the LTR. It moves more coolant. Keep the coolant moving = keep the bike cooler.

I swiched to Evans waterless coolant. You have to run a pre-flush through to remove all traces of water before you put in the waterless.

I run Evans with Flatland guards and the LTR impeller in a 200 and the overflow has been empty all year. It's been 80+ on some of the rides in very tight forest singletrack. I also run the stock GG cap. It runs a wee bit hotter with the waterless compared to 50/50, but it does not overheat at all now. The engine temp is very consistant across the various extremes in riding conditions since the switch.

Only drawback to waterless - if you leak, you can't steal from your camelbak.

I also run Evans waterless coolant and it works very well. Keep in mind, if your cooling system has fundamental coolant flow and airflow issues, those should be addressed first. Then use the Evans coolant. It will address the corner case overheating issue I experienced with conventional coolant - long, high altitude climbs at low speed on hot days.

According to one Evans coolant rep, you can add water to Evans coolant in an emergency. The water will need to be subsequently removed.

 

[FFRDave]

Im just going with Reverse Osmosis filtered "soft" water with the recommended amount of Water-wetter.

Barkeater, thanks for the ID on that sotck coolant. I got it out of there and flushed twice. By 'flushed' I mean that I filled with water, ran, and then drained the contents out, twice, before finaly filling with my "RO Soft + Ww combo".

I should be OK. Im not racing or anything

 

[GMP]

The LTR impeller is a worthwhile upgrade if you have a problem. The design places the face of the vanes closer to the pump cover, increasing the flow of the pump. The stock GG alloy impeller is just an aluminum version of the old plastic one.

I do not think the Flatland guards are the problem, as they sit a nice distance from the radiator. A stick through the rad is a problem. My brother's Husky TE450 has similar rad guards, and it never overheats with conventional coolant. If guards were a general problem I think the big 450 would protest long before a GG 2-stroke.

If you run the Evans coolant, there is no need for the KTM 1.4 bar cap. Since the Evans boils at 375 deg., the system pressure is very low. I have used it in a 4-stroke Cannondale but have seen no need in either of my 250 GGs. I run the LTR impeller, Flatland guards, KTM cap, and Engine Ice coolant(which I don't think is any better than other conventional coolants and water wetter). I never boil or run hot, even in long sections of tight pines and deep sand in our south NJ runs.

Be sure your head o-rings are in good shape and the head is not warped from a previous overheating episode. This will pressurize the cooling system with combustion gases and blow coolant out. Does the coolant look clean or does it have an oil content?

Overall the GG is one of the most boil resistant bikes out there, certainly better than the KTM 2-strokes I've had, stock vs. stock.

 

[Dave]

IMO, Evans better have a good insurance policy. Since the coolant they sell boils at a point that exceeds the maximum temperature rating of standard hoses it's just a matter of time before someone gets scalded with 350°F coolant.

 

[GMP]

I think the motor would seize before the coolant got that hot. Another thing to consider is that since the pressure is low, there is much less stress on the system hoses, seals, etc. On my Cannondale, waiting for other riders on a jeep road after a woods section, bike idling for a couple minutes, reach down and feel the rad hose and it was soft, absolutely no pressure buildup. The 'Dale's EFI would shut the motor down if the coolant temp out of the head got too hot, and that never happened.

 

[barkeater]

Barkeater, thanks for the ID on that sotck coolant. I got it out of there and flushed twice. By 'flushed' I mean that I filled with water, ran, and then drained the contents out, twice, before finaly filling with my "RO Soft + Ww combo".

I should be OK. Im not racing or anything

Did you pull the impeller cover when you drained it? There's usually a buildup of gooey sludge below and behind the impeller, further impeding the efficency of the already inefficient stock impeller. They must have a lot of sediment in the water in Spain - and it all collects around the impeller.

I've found that these bikes last longer when they are raced and ridden on a regular basis. They don't like sitting around in the shop or garage.

If you keep the bike moving forward (not standing still, rubber side up like I do) that should help!

I run distilled water and water wetter in my son's EC50boy and it helps. Those have a painfully small radiator on them, further complicated by the fact that the fender is exactly the same width as the radiator and blocks 95% of the airflow.

I have hacksawed the rear part of the front fender off (supermoto style) to facilitate air movement through the front of the radiator and added the water wetter.

They're like voo-doo, man - carburation and cooling.