Gas Gas 200/ General 200 info

Clay

Banned
Part 1.
There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about the whole 200 thing and I recently discovered some info that adds to the equation. First of all, the Saturday before I went to France I took my GG 300 set up for me with heavier springs, steering damper, Rekluse, etc to our practice trail to see how my lap times would compare to me on my son's Sherco 300i Race. Since I had never had a chance to ride a GG200, I took one of those too. It was totally stock except for EE handguards. I rode the 300 one lap without timing to get a good handle on the lap then I rode for the clock. Here are my lap times:
Lap 1 GG 300- 7:51
Lap 1 Sherco 300i Race-7:38
Lap 1 GG 200- 7:28

There was such a big difference that I was sure that I was getting faster due to learning the course so I did it again.
Lap 2 GG 300- 7:39
Lap 2 Sherco- 7:34
Lap 2 GG 200- 7:24

Please keep in mind that from December 1979 until I left Kawasaki in 2001, I raced KDX175/200/220s so I'm an experienced 200 rider. I naturally got a 200EXC when I went to work for KTM but I hated it because it hit so hard. In February 2003 I tried a KTM 300 EXC and loved it so I quit riding 200s and haven't ridden one since I ride the GG two weeks ago. But even though I have a lot of 200 experience I was surprised that my laps on the 200 were faster because my timing and reflexes on the 200 were still pretty rusty. In addition to being faster, I had a huge grin on my face while riding the 200. I would have raced a 200 in TX if I had time to set one up but I had to leave on Monday to go to France to the Sherco factory.

Part 2.
Since I had the experience of part 1 fresh on my mind, I naturally asked the engineer who was working on the Sherco 2T models about a 125/200 Sherco. This engineer, Boni (don't know his last name) is a great guy. He worked for GG for a long time and was the guy who designed the GG 2T engines. I asked him if he was going to design a 125. He said he was. I told him to keep it in mind that the US would need it as a 200. He asked if it had to bee 200cc and I, of course, said yes. So then he explained why it should not be a 200 and this will explain why GG built the 200 from the 250.
Keep in mind when I explain this I may have some of my dimensions wrong because this was a whole lot of technical info for a salesman. Boni explained that when GG told him to build a 200 that he chose to reduce the bore of a 250 rather than increase the bore of a 125 because, when the engine size is increased to "over square" dimensions, the bike will have a hard hit. The stroke on a 125 is 61mm and the piston needed to get it to 200cc is 64mm so the engine is over square. That is the case with the KTM 200 and explains why it hits hard. He said that he could increase the 125 to something like 167cc and keep it ridable. Or, he could decrease the bore on a 250 and it would be a much smoother motor like the GG 200 which is exactly why GG chose to make a 200 from the 250 platform rather than the 125. Of course, the problem with this is a heavier 200 than the orange one. Even if it is heavier is certainly is easier to ride. That's what I plan to race when the doc gives me the green light.
Now....back to part 1. Why was I faster on the 200? I think it was the corner speed. There were a few turns on this course that I could just rail easier on the 200 than I could on the 300. Throttle control was much more critical on the 300 in those corners. Of course I had to use a lot more clutch and I had to shift a whole lot more but it was really fun to do that again. Do I think that everyone should now ride a 200? Nope. 300s are fun too and probably easier to ride in technical stuff. I do think the GG 200 is a much, much better bike for the beginner and kids jumping from a 100/105 than the orange 200 is. I would not let my son ride an orange 200 when he outgrew the 105 because of the hit that bike has. He could have easily ridden the GG200.
So...that's my two cents on the whole 200 discussion. It took me three years of selling GG to finally get on a 200. I shouldn't have waited that long! :eek:
Clay
 
LOL now you see why I keep asking about about 200's :D I'm faster on my 165 Husky than I was on a 450R Honda. I had to find out the hard way a big bike isn't always faster for me. For me what Clint Eastwood said " a man's gotta know his limitations" is true. I'm stlill looking at the 300 Sherco as I have the 200 covered with the 165. Thanks for posting up real numbers on your lap times.
 
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So, if no 200 is on the horizon for Sherco, is there a 165 in the pipeline, then?
 
If the 250 is light I would prefer it be a real 200cc motorcycle based on the 250 platform. If not, then it would be a 160 to 170cc motorcycle. So, yes, there will most likely be some sort of 150 to 200cc unit from Sherco.
 
Part 3 will have to include a GG 250 2t. It would be interesting to see if it's the happy medium. I have ridden the GG200 as my brother had a bunch of them, but we are both on the 250's now. Much easier to handle when your tired than the 300 and just that extra you need it over the 200.
 
A combo of 200 SMOOTH power with light weight is my dream bike. Thanks again for posting you results.
 
I'm puttin' my fat but on a 200.. My son has lost the bug ! I have 2011 EC 200 SD in the shed and I am going to put a APT Carb on it and race .. I think it rides a ton easier in the tight stuff .. In fact I had a life long friend, Former AA champ, and super talented rider with me after Christmas to ride it while I rode the 300. He actually offered to by my 200 in the woods when we stopped on a break ! Lol :D
 
FWIW-

I have rode a stock KTM 200XC that had a hit like a banshee, although I never used the top end in the woods and was still fast on it- it was quite easy and quick to ride just keeping it in the low-midrange.
I have also rode a KTM 200 that had the 'langston' setup done to it and it was quite manageable.
Haven't rode a 200GG yet for comparison, I like the 125-200 bikes as they can be a lot of fun, but I can't ride them all day, as they become too busy for me after a couple hours. For me the GG250 is probably the best of both worlds. I love my 250; easy to ride slow, easy to ride quick- and everything in between.
Have my eye on the Smart carb, which I think may be the icing on the cake:)
 
Not to totally derail your post, but friends and I have done the same thing a couple of times over the years. Timing the group on 125, 144, 200, 250, 300 2T, and a few 4T. Repeatedly, the fastest times for most everyone was on my TM125 or the Yamaha yz144.

Bring on a Sherco 150!
 
I have only about 10 hours on my 250 now coming off my 300 and still am sorting threw jetting and gearing options but 100% am faster and much better climber. Shifting and throttle need some seat time but If I wasn't 225lbs I would really consider a 200! I'm currently trying to convince my buddy to buy a 200 from from his past 250's!
 
I say keep it on a 125 platform, and model it after the 165 Husky everyone raves about. Actually, Boni built Brian Hasslan"s GG152 a few years back and he raved about that as well. Biggest problem with big bore 125s is exhaust bridge failure but not an issue when engineered from the start for that displacement.

Agree the 200 on a 250 platform is smooth but for sales people will see a sleeved down big bike and pass even if the specs do not support this decision.


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I say keep it on a 125 platform, and model it after the 165 Husky everyone raves about. Actually, Boni built Brian Hasslan"s GG152 a few years back and he raved about that as well. Biggest problem with big bore 125s is exhaust bridge failure but not an issue when engineered from the start for that displacement.

Agree the 200 on a 250 platform is smooth but for sales people will see a sleeved down big bike and pass even if the specs do not support this decision.


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I recall that the Husky is massively oversquare, isn't it?

So was the 152 a one-off? I love tm125s, they are fast, but I must admit the yz144 and 167 I rode were just plain sweet. Probably my favorite woods bikes. I felt the 167 was like a 250f, except it didn't have that nasty 1000F degree header next to my leg and it was easy to restart.

Clay, if the 152 is available, I would like to hear what the price is.
 
Between my wife's 11 gasgas 250 and my husky 165 times are about the same. I'm I bit faster on the 165 I think mainly because I ride it more. But the fun factor on 165 is off the chart. If you don't mind being very busy when you ride,a small bike in the woods is hard to beat. I will do some testing when my beta 300 shows up.
 
The 152 was a one off. It was well documented here at one time. It was extensively modified, bore and stroke, even custom CDI map, but from what was said the results were excellent. Clay likely never saw this bike as it was before his time but Mark knows it.

Another thing to consider here is the definition of "hit". Everyone has different taste, and perhaps what is considered unacceptable to some would be fine and even desirable here, especially on a small bike.


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well , i must say it feels good to hear so many people craving for/ curious about those illusive 200's :D
i went from my 300 tot the ec 200 and after some very minor mods to the engine, i'm really loving it!!
it's got everything i need, enough torque to get me up every hill i see and enough puch in the straight to keep me from beeing last.
power is compairable to the yam WRF 250 4t except i don't have to rev it to get instant power,but on the straight it's more or less the same.
i swopped for a quick ride on the ec 250 of a friend and was still happy getting back on my own 200.

when all other riders get tired after a long ride, i can still ride mine pretty decent because it's (a bit) less tiring.

neither am i saying we should all get 200's now, but it's THE choice for me.
only way to know is try it out on your known trails/tracks.

ciao, Hannes.
 
The 152 was a one off. It was well documented here at one time. It was extensively modified, bore and stroke, even custom CDI map, but from what was said the results were excellent. Clay likely never saw this bike as it was before his time but Mark knows it.

Another thing to consider here is the definition of "hit". Everyone has different taste, and perhaps what is considered unacceptable to some would be fine and even desirable here, especially on a small bike.


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Found the thread with the 152 (or 144, or 150, whatever it ended at).
http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9247&highlight=boni
 
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