Idle probs, can't seem tp resolve.. Help!

[RichyN]

Hi, I just bought an EC300 yesterday. Is 2007 model. I have a problem with
idle, when blipping throttle the idle stays high for a while and then drops low.
When riding is cutting out.
The slide stop screw seems a long way in. Adjusting air screw doesn't make a lot of difference unless wound right in when it stalls. (is slightly faster when right out).
I even took the screw right out and the wasn't a massive change. Blip again and its up there.
I am at ground level 20C. I have changed the pilot from the #35 fitted to a 42.
Changed the float height from 17.5 to 16 as per Keihin site. Made little difference perhaps a little worse. Also was hard to start today on choke, took a few kicks. Fresh fuel.
Stripped the carb and blown out all the passages. The throttle slide is smooth and cable has free play. carb has #7 slide 35 pilot, 16mm float height, 170 main jet Needle is M1EF clip on top groove.
I tried turning the fuel off while idling, did not change speed just cut out after a while. there is a little smoke but not much. Small amount of oil dripping from exhaust port where pipe fits, Plug is black.damp with some shiny parts not sure if relevant at idle. Piston seems to have brown, black and silver patches looking down plug hole.

Anything other than carb that you can suggest please?
As I have blown passages out I assume clear but difficult to tell, air is coming out the other end.

I am scratching my head on this.
Hope someone can advise. BTW I did read through other thrreads
and saw the info about 42/45 pilot but also 35 pilot jets so must depend on the bike.

Thanks

Richy.

 

[Brian VT]

Might be an air leak at one of the carb. boots (overtight?).
With the bike running spray some carb. cleaner around the joints. If the idle speed changes then it's sucking the spray in.

 

[rpduc]

Have you tried moving that needle clip? All jetting threads I have read most commonly suggest position #3.

The poster in the other current idle problems thread resolved it with a CCK needle.

 

[Eric K]

First, make sure you don't have any air leaks as noted.

Second, get a CCK needle installed in clip 3 and report back on how it works.

 

[RichyN]

Thanks for the advice, I have sprayed carb cleaner, no air leaks.
Seemed rich rather than week though so air leak was not expected.
Have been out today on bike seems OK with a good run, idle keeps up for short
periods when stopped. Tried needle on middle clip, runs a bit thick at 3/4 throttle.


No hesitation or anything so that's good, needs fine tuning in the middle.

Will try the other needle recommended soon.

Cheers

Rich.

 

[101racing]

We did the full RB Design head and carb mod on a 08 ec 300 and it is amazing how good it runs top to bottom . It is not finicky at any altitude or temp. Well worth the time ,money and trouble.

 

[stay_upright]

A head mod is probably OTT for an idle problem and I'd ride the bike quite a bit first to see if you want the benefits a revised head may offer (and if you want to keep the 300).

How long do the rev's stay high after blipping the throttle - it's normal to take a little time to return to idle speed but not normal to keep a high speed for a long time.

When you say it's cutting out when you're riding it what's happening? I have a few issues with my 300 in that there is slight clutch drag so the idle speed needs setting high in neutral so that it will not stall riding with the clutch pulled in. Also with the idle set if the engine is not fully upto temp the throttle needs blipping to prevent it stalling even in neutral. Check you don't have too much clutch drag.

How many kicks did it take to start - again I can't guarantee I can start my bike first kick even when fully warm and in gear with the clutch pulled it's harder as well - I think it is te short kickstart and big capacity working against each other.

If you move the fuel screw in and it's worse you've richened it up so perhaps you are a bit too rich anyway. If you've got the time trying different fuel screw settings with the 35 pilot would be worth doing, it sounds as if maybe your pilot is too big (even though a 42 sounds some-where near) and the air screw looses effectiveness once it is more than 2-1/2 turns out then you need a smaller pilot for it to be effective again.

 

[iancp5]

Hi, I just bought an EC300 yesterday. Is 2007 model. I have a problem with
idle, when blipping throttle the idle stays high for a while and then drops low.
When riding is cutting out.
The slide stop screw seems a long way in. Adjusting air screw doesn't make a lot of difference unless wound right in when it stalls. (is slightly faster when right out).
I even took the screw right out and the wasn't a massive change. Blip again and its up there.
I am at ground level 20C. I have changed the pilot from the #35 fitted to a 42.
Changed the float height from 17.5 to 16 as per Keihin site. Made little difference perhaps a little worse. Also was hard to start today on choke, took a few kicks. Fresh fuel.
Stripped the carb and blown out all the passages. The throttle slide is smooth and cable has free play. carb has #7 slide 35 pilot, 16mm float height, 170 main jet Needle is M1EF clip on top groove.
I tried turning the fuel off while idling, did not change speed just cut out after a while. there is a little smoke but not much. Small amount of oil dripping from exhaust port where pipe fits, Plug is black.damp with some shiny parts not sure if relevant at idle. Piston seems to have brown, black and silver patches looking down plug hole.

Anything other than carb that you can suggest please?
As I have blown passages out I assume clear but difficult to tell, air is coming out the other end.

I am scratching my head on this.
Hope someone can advise. BTW I did read through other thrreads
and saw the info about 42/45 pilot but also 35 pilot jets so must depend on the bike.

Thanks

Richy.

That jetting doesn't look right which is making a notorious GG problem even worse. But .... I had an 03 model. Check with Dave at BikeTech if 07 is same. But it sounds way too lean for earlier models. Don't think the engine has changed that radically.

I wouldn't go below #38 pilot. Maybe 40 - 42 in winter.
The needle is probably an N1EF and I think you need a richer main of 178 or 180. Then try the N1EF on 2 or 3 clip. Even better a CCK needle try on 3. On mine the CCK was definitely the dog's.

The GG's are quite sensitive to float height. I used to set mine more by trial and error as I couldn't get it right measuring. I did find that if you had the fuel level too high you end up compensating by leaning the jetting too much but if you're not careful you'll seize it on large throttle openings. If you have it too low it'll run out of fuel in the bowl at wide open.

Once you get the carburation right you'll get an idle that is acceptable but not great. From people's experiences on here the RB carb mod and setting squish spot on helps sort it. But ... you can get it livable without that.

 

[ferguscawley]

I agree with Ian.

A 170 main jet is way too lean at sea level and 20C degree ambient temp.

Put a 178 main in it, N1EF on clip 2 and a 42 pilot. Number 7 slide is standard.

If you can get a CCK needle then go for it. Works even better in my 300 on clip 2 . Clip 3 was far too blubbery (rich) for my liking. Power is much more progressive with the CCK needle (versus the N1EF).

You should be able to set your idle with idle screw and fuel screw quite easily with that set-up.

 

[widebear]

We did the full RB Design head and carb mod on a 08 ec 300 and it is amazing how good it runs top to bottom . It is not finicky at any altitude or temp. Well worth the time ,money and trouble.

Exept he wont ship to Canada let alone the U.K., and wont deal in any other currency exept cash.

 

[RichyN]

Thanks for the advice. I did speak with Dave at Bike Tech.
Got a 178 main, 40 pilot, CCK needle.
All fitted, still can't get the idle to go right. When fully warmed up, when you close the throttle it hangs as though the idle is set too high, then after about 30 secs or so drops to a slow idle. The idle screw is quite a long way in, throttle cable seems free and OK.

Also after accelerating through the gears on mid throttle, I am getting a knock as the throttle is closed and opened. This will happen when I stop for a couple of blips until presumable the engine cools off a little. This is at 0-4 degrees C at about 1000 ft. I have tried needle on #5 also the N1EF needle, still happens with either I tried a hard run on full throttle but have limited space for this and cut the engine as best I could (the kill switch is not at the bars...)
Plug was clean with matt white insulator except for about 70 degree angle which was sooty. It seemed to be over one side of the electrode.

There is no spooge at all the pipe exit is dry but dark.

On full throttle run I did not notice any knocking..

I have limited opportunity to try it as it is not road registered currently.

BTW Ian, did you move here from KDX land?

Any suggestions very welcome.

 

[Skidad]

I think with the 40 pilot you're still to lean. I woud try a 45 for the temps you mentioned. A clean white insulator on the plug is not good indicating a lean condition.

Although unlikely as it's an 07 a bad crank seal on the ignition side can cause these symptoms.

 

[GMP]

Your obviously lean. First verify no air leaks, good reeds, and that fuel is OK (no large amount of oxygenate). You should not have to run the slide stop in so far, you are pulling off the needle circuit. If you are doing this because the idle was rich, try an #8 slide with richer pilot.

 

[iancp5]

First please note that I do a lot of tight woods riding and speeds are often down to below 10 mph for a lot of the time with throttle alternating between 0 and 25% on a 300. I did a lot of testing a few years ago and found anything above a 42 pilot would cause spooging in the trees. That applied to various N1EX needles and the LTR. It may be lean at idle but going rich on the pilot swaps one problem for another. I found I'd do a slow section for maybe 5 - 10 mins, hit a straight and the bike would cough for about 5 secs before clearing and taking off. At that point the guy you worked hard to overtake in the woods comes past!

I'd suggest really checking for air leaks. On the 2 GG's I've owned the fit between carb and manifolds isn't great and it's easy to develop a slight split in the engine side one from over tightening and to get an air gap filter side from it not being on completely. I also reckon float height is very critical on these bikes for the idle.

I always suspected that the engine hanging was because at that point it was hot and clean. After a while of idling it would cool and spooge up somehow. If you richen it up it doesn't hang but it'll stall as it cools and spooges. You should be able to richen on the airscrew and then up the idle so it doesn't stall. If you go too rich on pilot it wont run right weaving in and out of the trees.

Never had a KDX by the way.

 

[RichyN]

Your obviously lean. First verify no air leaks, good reeds, and that fuel is OK (no large amount of oxygenate). You should not have to run the slide stop in so far, you are pulling off the needle circuit. If you are doing this because the idle was rich, try an #8 slide with richer pilot.

I did check for leaks all round the carb by spraying carb cleaner. No leaks.
The reeds appear to be V-Force 3: 4 pairs of carbon fibre reeds in a "W" shaped cage. All petals are fine but there are some VERY slight light gaps if I shine a bright light through.

I sprayed WD40 in around the flywheel to try and check the crank seal
I was not able to get a change in the fast idle, what is best way to check
the crank seal?

Incidentally, I checked the flywheel for vertical play and there is none, except at TDC/BDC where I can just feel a very slight movement.
Not sure if this is serious or if it will go on for years......
I think the bike must have had a hard life before I got it..

Cheers

 

[RichyN]

First please note that I do a lot of tight woods riding and speeds are often down to below 10 mph for a lot of the time with throttle alternating between 0 and 25% on a 300. I did a lot of testing a few years ago and found anything above a 42 pilot would cause spooging in the trees. That applied to various N1EX needles and the LTR. It may be lean at idle but going rich on the pilot swaps one problem for another. I found I'd do a slow section for maybe 5 - 10 mins, hit a straight and the bike would cough for about 5 secs before clearing and taking off. At that point the guy you worked hard to overtake in the woods comes past!

I'd suggest really checking for air leaks. On the 2 GG's I've owned the fit between carb and manifolds isn't great and it's easy to develop a slight split in the engine side one from over tightening and to get an air gap filter side from it not being on completely. I also reckon float height is very critical on these bikes for the idle.

I always suspected that the engine hanging was because at that point it was hot and clean. After a while of idling it would cool and spooge up somehow. If you richen it up it doesn't hang but it'll stall as it cools and spooges. You should be able to richen on the airscrew and then up the idle so it doesn't stall. If you go too rich on pilot it wont run right weaving in and out of the trees.

Never had a KDX by the way.

I do have the slight hesitation when opening it up after a while and then
it kicks in and runs clean. The general throttle response is excellent.
This is with N1EF currently on #2. I have tried on #3 but it seemed to be running rich as it would not rev cleanly.
I don't understand this lean business if the needle jet is rich. Is the pilot that significant? When I got the bike there was a 35 pilot. going to the 40 has not made much difference really to the idle issue.

 

[Skidad]

Try the 45 and see what happens. Like GMP says you may need a #8 slide to work best with that but try it with the stock #7 first. The hesitation you speak of could be a lean bog not rich.

 

[Loosenut]

Funny. My 2000 EC300 never really idled well. It does best with a 42 pilot and #8 slide which is OK. I currently have the #7 slide in the bike to make it easier to ride for my less skilled freinds. My 2005 EC300 idles all day long with the same 42 pilot jet with the stock, LTR or the CCK needles.

 

[iancp5]

I do have the slight hesitation when opening it up after a while and then
it kicks in and runs clean. The general throttle response is excellent.
This is with N1EF currently on #2. I have tried on #3 but it seemed to be running rich as it would not rev cleanly.
I don't understand this lean business if the needle jet is rich. Is the pilot that significant? When I got the bike there was a 35 pilot. going to the 40 has not made much difference really to the idle issue.

This is just my opinion and I know others vary but you should ignore idle and jet the bike for actual riding provided it doesn't stall as soon as you you close the gas. Then when happy with that think about the idle. The pilot effected a lot for me because so much of my riding was at low speed. If this isn't important for you, you could go rich on it which would stop idle being too high when coming off a fast bit. I do find the Gassers I've had incredibly sensitive to the idle. It is possible to get an adequate idle but everything has to be right and don't under estimate float height in combination with pilot effect. I wonder if this is why we get such a variation in pilot sizes. I.e. the guys that have no problem with a 45 or bigger pilot are running a lower float height that those of us on 38, 40, 42? I know I find it hard to set float height I've often measured very carefully and found it obviously wrong when running the bike. It feels as if 1mm too low and it can run lean or out of gas and 1mm too high and it starts leaking at the slightest opportunity. Maybe it's my clumsiness.