Overheated engine

[Eric K]

Yesterday I noticed my GasGas badly overheating while climbing a hill. On the hill it just ran out of power, pinged bad and would not shut off with the kill switch. Prior to that it had some signs of minor overheating – erratic high idle and feeling a bit hot, but otherwise normal.

I checked the cooling system and it was not pressurized so I opened the radiator cap. I could not see any fluid or steam, so I proceeded to add a bit of water. When the water got down to the engine I had a massive percolating boiler spewing steam out the radiator cap. Eventually things settled down and I put in about a quart of water.

At that point I was wondering where the coolant went since I had not had any boiling out. I looked in the sight glass and saw a gray milky liquid. I tipped the motorcycle on its side and I could still see liquid in the sight glass so I assumed the coolant went into the transmission.

I rode easy back to the truck. The motorcycle ran fine with water in it for about 8 miles back to the truck.

At home I drained the transmission. I end up draining 2 quarts of grayish milky fluid out of the transmission. That accounts for where the 1 quart of coolant went – into the transmission to mix with the 1 quart of transmission oil.

I assume the water pump seal failed.

My plan is to…

1) check compression (if good leave the top end as is, if bad rebuild)
2) replace the water pump seal and check for any other potential leaks
3) change the transmission oil and ride it briefly, continue with oil changes until the oil comes out clean.
4) flush out the cooling system and put in new coolant.

Anything else I should look at?

 

[nhrider]

Yesterday I noticed my GasGas badly overheating while climbing a hill. On the hill it just ran out of power, pinged bad and would not shut off with the kill switch. Prior to that it had some signs of minor overheating – erratic high idle and feeling a bit hot, but otherwise normal.

I checked the cooling system and it was not pressurized so I opened the radiator cap. I could not see any fluid or steam, so I proceeded to add a bit of water. When the water got down to the engine I had a massive percolating boiler spewing steam out the radiator cap. Eventually things settled down and I put in about a quart of water.

At that point I was wondering where the coolant went since I had not had any boiling out. I looked in the sight glass and saw a gray milky liquid. I tipped the motorcycle on its side and I could still see liquid in the sight glass so I assumed the coolant went into the transmission.

I rode easy back to the truck. The motorcycle ran fine with water in it for about 8 miles back to the truck.

At home I drained the transmission. I end up draining 2 quarts of grayish milky fluid out of the transmission. That accounts for where the 1 quart of coolant went – into the transmission to mix with the 1 quart of transmission oil.

I assume the water pump seal failed.

My plan is to…

1) check compression (if good leave the top end as is, if bad rebuild)
2) replace the water pump seal and check for any other potential leaks
3) change the transmission oil and ride it briefly, continue with oil changes until the oil comes out clean.
4) flush out the cooling system and put in new coolant.

Anything else I should look at?

That's not good! Hate to hear this.

I'm bet you'll need to replace the top end. Change the oil with ATF oil and don't even ride it. Run it for a little bit and change the oil. Do that until oil looks good.

Someone else maybe knows my it didn't want to shut off. Air leak drawing in fuel made the engine keep running??? Got me...but I'm sure you'll get an answer.

 

[mountain thumper]

can a 2 stroke deisel like a 4 strake. my last truck blew a head gasket. it still ran great, but would always deisel for at least 5 seconds after i shut it off. i had just bought a newer one a few weeks before it happened, so i sold the truck( lol for 200 more than id put into it) and never messed with it at all.
in my brain fuel was mixing with the antifreeze, and igniting from carbon deposits inside cylinder(s) that were still hot.

 

[Skidad]

Don't know about the diesel but they can run backwards. I've seen it happen but never to me. Really funny.


Skidad

 

[Eric K]

Here is what else I found...

No oil in the cooling system.

Compression measured 182 psi. It was 185 psi just after rebuilding the top end 12 hours ago. (Note: Since my knee was sore, I had my son kick it for the compression check and he did not kick it quite as fast as I did on the previous check.)

The water pump seal was replaced when I did the top end rebuild 12 hours ago. It had worked fine until the last ride. There was no visible damage to water pump seal. The LTR impeller looked fine.

The spark plug looked good - a light brown electrode.

I took the pipe off and looked in through the exhaust port. From what I could see the piston, rings, cylinder, head and power valve look normal.

The exhaust o-rings were the only thing I could see adversely affected by the heat. They were brittle and broke into pieces.

Once I get a new water pump seal it looks like it will take a number of oil changes to flush out the milky gray oil/coolant mix.

Note - this is on the '06 EC300.

 

[Eric K]

Since the exhaust pipe o-rings were cooked, I replaced the head o-rings. The ‘overheated’ head o-rings were still pliable and intact. There were trace amounts of carbon on the piston and head which I cleaned off. The carbon was baked on.

Here are the compression measurements…

After rebuild ~12 hours ago prior to break in 185 psi (me kicking)
After overheating 182 psi (son kicking)
After overheating and replacing head o-rings 205 psi (me kicking)

I attribute this recent increase in compression to me kicking faster than my son (I have a 60+ lb weight advantage) not to the new head o-rings. I attribute the increase in compression since the last rebuild to ring seating. Overall, great compression and the engine runs just as well as it did before.

The leaking water pump seal did not have any visible damage. The LTR impeller looked fine.

After 3 oil changes with short rides in between the transmission oil looks clean.

I continue to be impressed by the robustness and durability of the GasGas 300 engines, except for the waterpump seal which I have changed a total of 5 times on my ’01 XC300 and ’06 EC300.

 

[Loosenut]

I'm glad your bike seems to OK after the over-heating. It seems odd that you have gone thru that many water pump seals. I believe my 2000 EC300 still has the original seal, and if not it was only replaced after my major rebuild.

 

[blitz11]

When I see repeated failures of a component, i always ask "why?"

You having replaced these five times has me wondering "why?"

Problem with the case? Problem with the shaft? Problem with gaskets? Bent shafts? Bad finish? Cracked case?

I don't remember how this goes together (just have done mine once, and my memory is good, just short), but there is usually a cause for these chronic problems. When i had my cover off, i bought a water pump seal, but my water pump seal looked good, so I left it in. Had i taken it out, I might have a better memory.

Good luck.

blitz.

 

[HydroDog]

With that many seals on 2 different bikes I would maybe look at a different coolant mix. Sound like not enough lubricating qualities for the seal.

I know I'm a little late on flushing the tranny advice but I've used paint thinner mixed with STP gas treatment to flush out trannys after being deep sixed. The alcohol in the STP will absorb the water.

 

[Eric K]

3 seals on the '01 XC300 and 2 seals on the '06 EC300.

I have looked closely to find the root cause. The seals last varying lengths of time. The shaft and bearings are solid. No corrosion on the shaft. No cracks in the cases. Perhaps it is a tolerance stack issue. However, without the factory dimensions it is a bit hard to determine what it should be.

On the bright side a waterpump seal is fairly easy to replace.

 

[jefgil123]

Can you remember about how many miles you went between seals the other times? Is it about 12 hours? also.
What kind of coolant are you using?

Jeff in CA.

-EDIT - P.S. - What radiator cap are you using - a higher pressure one ??

Maybe when the engine gets hot the overpressure blows thru the seal instead of out the cap ????
(But I wouldn't expect anything to blow with the Evans Coolant......hmmmm.
I am working on a cooling system "sight glass" that goes on the hose coming out of the head.
Will keep you posted. -EDIT-

 

[GMP]

Very odd. The GG motor uses a high speed ceramic/graphite pump seal, common in industry but not in the MC world. A much better design than the common seal on shaft that most bikes use. I have found it to be exceptionaly reliable. Hundreds of hours on three bikes with no failures. What has been the failure mode? The ceramic will not wear so its either the graphite ring, spring failure, fit in side case, or the boot is leaking on the shaft.

 

[Eric K]

Here is the history of waterpump seals...

'01 XC300
Original seal failed at 82 hours [stock coolant]
1st replacement seal failed at 4 hours [Prestone/water 50/50 mix]
2nd replacement seal failed at 51 hours [49 hours Prestone/water 50/50 mix, 2 hours w/Evans coolant]
3rd replacement seal still holding at 280 hours [48 hours Prestone/water 50/50 mix, 232 hours w/Evans coolant]

'06 EC300
Original seal failed 90 hours [Evans coolant]
1st replacement seal failed at 12 hours [Evans coolant]
2nd replacement seal just put in [Evans coolant]

I also helped a friend replace a waterpump seal on a ’01 XC300. I estimate it had between 100 and 200 hours of total use.

I have not seen any visible seal failure mode on any of the failed seals.
The waterpump shafts have not been grooved and bearings are solid.

Years ago, my local GG dealer told me that the waterpump seal had to be shimmed to avoid failure. Since I had just put in my 3rd seal on the '01 XC300, I was going to wait until it failed again before any shimming. However, it has fortunately held up. I don't recall any specifics of the shimming recommendation and the shop is no longer in business.

 

[blitz11]

My old Honda cx 500 had the ceramic water pump seal, as did yamaha 500 visions of the early 1980s. very reliable seal. I bought a spare, but haven't had to use it yet (at about 100 hours of use to date).

The theory of too high a pressure radiator cap is a good call, too. A definite possibility.

 

[GMP]

The shaft grooving is a non-issue as it does not spin withen the boot, boot fits tight to the shaft (or should). Was the fit(s) still tight?

The Prestone mix I could see POSSIBLY having a wear effect on the graphite ring as there are silicates in that coolant.

As system pressure builds, the sealing surfaces are pushed together even harder. With EVANS, there is very little system pressure, but I do not think the seal design needs a certain pressure, thats what the spring is for. Also the pressure is low with all coolants at startup. What I do beleive is that a certain amount of preload is required in the design of the fit and this is what the shimming would change. We have to get the exact size and preferably mfg. of the seal and look up the data sheet. I'm sure its also important that the ceramic half that presses into the case over the bearing be in square.

FWIW, I have only used Engine Ice in all three of my bikes with 1.4 bar caps. I have a gallon of EVANS NPGR on the shelf I was going to use after I do the top end (soon).

 

[Eric K]

The seal fit over the shaft snugly. I could not see an obvious failure on the seals.

On installation, I verify the seals are aligned squarely to the hole/shaft.

With the Evans coolant I run the radiator cap backed off just a bit to reduce the system pressure.

When I look at the failure data, there is no clear signal to me other than they have a short expected life.

On the bright side they are easy to change.

 

[wence]

Had the exact problems you were having on a 98 Rmx 250.
Turns out the head gasket was leaking into the barrel.
Had to reface head and barrel to eliminate warp and replace gasket.This happened on two occasions until doing the head and barrel work.
Good luck.

 

[Eric K]

The head o-rings were not leaking. I replaced them anyway.

Since replacing the waterpump seal, the engine has not even come close to overheating.

I stuck a temperature tab on the outside of the cylinder just below the head. On high elevation, warm day, tight singletrack, climbing steep hills with many tight 1st and 2nd gear switchbacks the warmest temperature reading was 203 deg F.

The waterpump seal is currently holding up. As long as the seal holds, it works great.