Sachs
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robszombie
New member
My 2009 EC250 was very harsh up front despite fiddling, that was until I sent it to Dr.SHOX in the UK. It's been a changed bike since, pity my abilities haven't kept up!
eddy field1
New member
i recently rode a 2010 gasser and the forks were deffently not as good a the marz 50mm or 45mm. just seemed very harsh nearly flipped me over bars on first big bump haha. Dont have any complaints about the shocks though.
twowheels
New member
Sachs Stack Definitely Unusual
I've been working on a set-up for Sachs forks after discovering that they use man-hole covers in the compression stack ... well not really, but darned close.
By the time its warm enough to ride in Michigan I should have a very workable tune that will put the Sachs on the same level as an open chamber KYB.
I've been working on a set-up for Sachs forks after discovering that they use man-hole covers in the compression stack ... well not really, but darned close.
By the time its warm enough to ride in Michigan I should have a very workable tune that will put the Sachs on the same level as an open chamber KYB.
moto9
Silver Level Site Supporter
It's a old design and some componants could be made better.
The fork is a copy of the marz 45...or very simular and can be made to work well if it's sprung and valved right.
IMHO their stuff is over damped and under sprung, just like jap bikes have been for the past 10-20 years.
I converted my shock to a bladder type, went to a 5.4 spring, softened up the compression valving mainly the mid and h/s portion of the stack and stiffened up the rebound stack.
I added a bleed port to the rear of the shock so that I could use my vac pump to bleed the shock and set the correct oil volume.
I valved and sprung the forks the same along with a mid valve adjustment and lowering the oil level.
I now love the way the bike works, it's very plush over roots and rocks... I could use a little more h/s rebound in the fork..I'll take care of that next oil change.
What I don't like about the sach fork is it's not as easy to remove the cart rod like the marz.
The fork is a copy of the marz 45...or very simular and can be made to work well if it's sprung and valved right.
IMHO their stuff is over damped and under sprung, just like jap bikes have been for the past 10-20 years.
I converted my shock to a bladder type, went to a 5.4 spring, softened up the compression valving mainly the mid and h/s portion of the stack and stiffened up the rebound stack.
I added a bleed port to the rear of the shock so that I could use my vac pump to bleed the shock and set the correct oil volume.
I valved and sprung the forks the same along with a mid valve adjustment and lowering the oil level.
I now love the way the bike works, it's very plush over roots and rocks... I could use a little more h/s rebound in the fork..I'll take care of that next oil change.
What I don't like about the sach fork is it's not as easy to remove the cart rod like the marz.
Les at LT-Racing (a sponsor here) has a good setup for the Sachs now. He does have to re-work the internals more than the average fork - so labor is higher than usual...
Here is a little info on the fork on his website :
http://www.lt-racing.com/html/sachs_48_fork.html
I asked him about the general quality of the fork - metal, bushings, etc. The quality of construction is good - the design details and valving need re-work to straighten it out. See the link above for more details.
jeff
Here is a little info on the fork on his website :
http://www.lt-racing.com/html/sachs_48_fork.html
I asked him about the general quality of the fork - metal, bushings, etc. The quality of construction is good - the design details and valving need re-work to straighten it out. See the link above for more details.
jeff
Why is Gasgas going backwards wtih fork quality? The 45 zoke is marginal as it is and the sachs is worse? Husky finally ditched them for the 50mm zoke and now the KYB which has the reputation as the best fork out. Gasgas has, or at least had, a reputation for great suspesnsion so I would think they would step it up. Just curious as I am looking into a new bike this year and am considering a Gasgas if a decent tank is not out for the Husky 125.
To answer the original question - the quality of the sachs fork is good - the execution needs work.
We have the 50mm zokes on the the husky 510 and 45mm zokes on my "trail bike" - a honda xr250 that also has an ohlins rear shock. Both these forks are very, very good when set up properly. I would rather have either of these forks over the KYB.
jeff
We have the 50mm zokes on the the husky 510 and 45mm zokes on my "trail bike" - a honda xr250 that also has an ohlins rear shock. Both these forks are very, very good when set up properly. I would rather have either of these forks over the KYB.
jeff
I know there is a bias towards euro suspension among euro bike owners but I would not put the 45mm zoke in the same league as the KYB. I have ridden several with LTR work and I would still take a stock KYB as delivered on a YZ250. The 45 seems decent for trail work but just not great. That is what I have now and I can't complain and I would buy another bike with them.
But I have ridden the 50mm TC zoke with a LTR revalve and it was magic. Probably even better then the LTR revalved YZ 250 I rode. These two bikes were the top two suspended bikes I have ever been on.
I have never tried an Ohlins though. I don't know if they come on the Gasgas 125 anyway (which is the model I am interested in)
But I have ridden the 50mm TC zoke with a LTR revalve and it was magic. Probably even better then the LTR revalved YZ 250 I rode. These two bikes were the top two suspended bikes I have ever been on.
I have never tried an Ohlins though. I don't know if they come on the Gasgas 125 anyway (which is the model I am interested in)
I mistyped my previous post - I stated "zokes" - when I meant to say the sachs fork is good quality construction - but needs to be dialed in to make it work.
FYI - Looking at the gasgas corporate site - the '10 gasgas 125 is supplied with 45mm zokes....
Jeff
p.s. I actually live in beaverton - live near walker and canyon road - would love to go for a ride some time - drop me a line.
FYI - Looking at the gasgas corporate site - the '10 gasgas 125 is supplied with 45mm zokes....
Jeff
p.s. I actually live in beaverton - live near walker and canyon road - would love to go for a ride some time - drop me a line.
Looking at LTR site your looking at $400 with new fork springs to make the sachs fork work like it should.Is it just me or does this seem backwards.Why does it not work like it should from the factory. I know you can't get it perfect for everyone's style or conditions but it should be close and not need 4 bills to make it right.Can you put KYB's on a GasGas. Maybe thats where a guy should spend that extra money to make the sachs work.
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iancp5
New member
Sachs - what the hell are GG thinking? It doesn't matter what forks they use if they just bung in any old random setup. People in the UK bought GG because they had reliable 2T motors and good suspension for Mr Average. What's the incentive with the rubbish setups they've been shipping recently? May as well get a KTM, Honda, Yamaha etc etc. They are throwing away their differentiator. How do they hope to sell that 250F - everyone does 250F and they all have better suspension!!! 
If by a miracle someone from GG factory reads this - sort the suspension or lose your market! At one point (2007) I thought maybe GG could unseat KTM in Europe then they went backwards - doh!
If by a miracle someone from GG factory reads this - sort the suspension or lose your market! At one point (2007) I thought maybe GG could unseat KTM in Europe then they went backwards - doh!
LTRace
Site Sponsor
Silver, if you need springs, yes, you are looking at about $400 and this would cover about everything. At this point, I doubt anyone would need any wear parts at all. Maybe someone else can do it cheaper, faster, that’s totally fine with me. I agree, and fully understand the feelings of having to pay for this amount of work to make things right.
At this level, I don’t think there is a fork that’s "poor quality".
I also don't understand why some people consider Marzocchi a poor quality fork at all, or even the 48 Sachs mentioned. They’re just different; I don’t see a “cheap” component in them. Just because a fork is made a little different and it’s not what you’re used to seeing or working on does not necessarily justify it being “cheaply made”. It’s just different.
Usually the manufacturer of the motorcycle will spec out their parameters to the suspension manufacturer and they get exactly what they ordered. Don't completely blame Marzocchi or Sachs for what GasGas or any other manufacturer specs out in their design. Sometimes the suspension supplier and the motorcycle manufacturer work together (novel concept) for a set up. If it's off, they're both to blame. I wonder who (if anyone) did testing on the GasGas/Sachs fork.
Granted, there are some items within a Marzocchi fork that need more attention than others, but all said and done, the exact same things are also addressed on any other WP, KYB, Showa, Ohlins or any other fork.
With some knowledge of hydraulics and an understanding of ALL the circuits and how they affect each other, you can make any tunable fork do just about anything reasonable you want it to. Some (like the Sachs) have longer paths to success.
The engineers that design these forks do a pretty darn good job of it; they are manufactured and constructed very well with high quality materials. Could they do a better job in initial settings? You bet they should. I have witnessed some pretty bizarre practices being carried out the past several years with Marzocchi, and now Sachs takes it to the limit.
Who is responsible for the execution of that set up? What are they thinking? Do they test this stuff? Who is responsible for testing it and who gave it the green light? Not everyone is going to be in the zone they set it up for, but they should at least get it close.
If you look at a C/C KYB 48 unit (an improved copy of a 47 Showa) you might be surprised how fundamentally “back to basic” the design really is, same with their 48 Open units. These are out of the box, a very good set up with a broad working range. Are they right for everyone? Probably not but they sure hit a good target. Both Showa and KYB have made some real stinkers in the past too. Did we just forgot about, or possibly never experience them?
It’s too bad the Sachs fork is so far off, unfortunately, it’s more involved than thinner shims or magic valves.
At this level, I don’t think there is a fork that’s "poor quality".
I also don't understand why some people consider Marzocchi a poor quality fork at all, or even the 48 Sachs mentioned. They’re just different; I don’t see a “cheap” component in them. Just because a fork is made a little different and it’s not what you’re used to seeing or working on does not necessarily justify it being “cheaply made”. It’s just different.
Usually the manufacturer of the motorcycle will spec out their parameters to the suspension manufacturer and they get exactly what they ordered. Don't completely blame Marzocchi or Sachs for what GasGas or any other manufacturer specs out in their design. Sometimes the suspension supplier and the motorcycle manufacturer work together (novel concept) for a set up. If it's off, they're both to blame. I wonder who (if anyone) did testing on the GasGas/Sachs fork.
Granted, there are some items within a Marzocchi fork that need more attention than others, but all said and done, the exact same things are also addressed on any other WP, KYB, Showa, Ohlins or any other fork.
With some knowledge of hydraulics and an understanding of ALL the circuits and how they affect each other, you can make any tunable fork do just about anything reasonable you want it to. Some (like the Sachs) have longer paths to success.
The engineers that design these forks do a pretty darn good job of it; they are manufactured and constructed very well with high quality materials. Could they do a better job in initial settings? You bet they should. I have witnessed some pretty bizarre practices being carried out the past several years with Marzocchi, and now Sachs takes it to the limit.
Who is responsible for the execution of that set up? What are they thinking? Do they test this stuff? Who is responsible for testing it and who gave it the green light? Not everyone is going to be in the zone they set it up for, but they should at least get it close.
If you look at a C/C KYB 48 unit (an improved copy of a 47 Showa) you might be surprised how fundamentally “back to basic” the design really is, same with their 48 Open units. These are out of the box, a very good set up with a broad working range. Are they right for everyone? Probably not but they sure hit a good target. Both Showa and KYB have made some real stinkers in the past too. Did we just forgot about, or possibly never experience them?
It’s too bad the Sachs fork is so far off, unfortunately, it’s more involved than thinner shims or magic valves.
LTR not blaming you or any other suspension shop for making a living I 've never had any work done by you but have only heard good things about you and your work. I'm just trying to gain some knowledge about the new stuff and make a decesion whether to buy a 2010 or bring some new life back to my 07. The guy who does my stuff here just mentoned that my Marz and Ohlins stuff were pretty high quality and the sachs stuff he had worked on in the past did not in his mind measure up.I personally have never ridden anything with sachs . It just seems to me that out of the box it should be better.
SpeedyManiac
New member
Don't knock it till you try it. The 09 EC250 with Sachs suspension I rode at the 2008 ISDE was magic. I set the sag then raced the bike for 6 days without even touching a clicker. And that was riding a mix of terrain, with a bit of sand and lots of types of rock.
I just picked up a 2009 EC250 Racing with Sachs suspension front and back and am very excited. I've ridden the 43mm WPs, 45mm Zokes, 48mm Ohlins and 48mm Sachs and so far I like the Sachs the best.
I just picked up a 2009 EC250 Racing with Sachs suspension front and back and am very excited. I've ridden the 43mm WPs, 45mm Zokes, 48mm Ohlins and 48mm Sachs and so far I like the Sachs the best.
iancp5
New member
I take the point. I didn't mean that Sachs was poor build quality just that there seems to be a lot poorly setup on GG's being shipped. There are a lot of reports of harshness from lots of different places. If there are some that are working well from new then maybe there's been a QA problem because there are too many reports of harshness both sides of the pond to be just bad luck on a couple of bikes. I'm sure Sachs just ship GG what they ask for.
In the UK most of the enduro bikes being shipped now have quite good suspension for Mr Average. It used to be that GG was a step ahead but now they seem a step behind. Something's gone wrong. Or have they switched their focus from slow technical to hard and fast?
In the UK most of the enduro bikes being shipped now have quite good suspension for Mr Average. It used to be that GG was a step ahead but now they seem a step behind. Something's gone wrong. Or have they switched their focus from slow technical to hard and fast?
Steve,
I would guess your six days bike was either pre-production or re-valved for the terrain by the factory.
FYI - The recent Cycle News 2010 test stated :
"it was way too stiff for my taste. I simply got beat up on the rough sections of trail..."
jeff
