2004 EC200 Jetting

2004ec200

2004ec200

New member
Hello,

My First post here on GGRC. Also first GG for me. I have had a couple of KDX 200's over the years and love the bike but wanted to try something different. Found this EC200 and purchased it from a dealer sight unseen. Bike is in real nice shape but power could be better. I have been lurking here for some time and have read 100's of post (I think all I could find on the internet) on jetting for the EC200. But just can't seem to find a post that sounds like my bikes symptoms.

Bike starts first kick, with or without choke. will idle till warm. Won't idle for long once hot. Idle just keeps slowing till it stalls. I've tryed adjusting the air screw but it dosnt seem to have much affect (weird). Bike will stall if screwed all the way in so it is working. Idle screw is all the way in. No dents in pipe, muffler may need to be repacked. spark plug looks great (not wet and a nice tan/brown color). Just a note of spooge out the exhaust, looks normal. Power valve closes and is working. Running NAVGAS (leaded airplane fuel, 100 octaine) at 45:1 with HP2 synthetic racing oil. pulled the carb and found the following:
165 main
50 slow
NBHW needle 2nd clip

Jetting looks weird to me. I'm guessing that 50 slow jet is the idle problem. Bike runs mid to upper throttle great. awesome top end. But you HAVE to be in the pipe for it go. There is virtually no bottom end. Just bbuuuwwwwwgggg until you hit the pipe then ye ha. both KDX's Ive had would blow the doors off this EC on the bottom. Carb is the PWK38, engine compression is 154 psi. Haven't checked float height yet. Pipe is a FMF Fatty. I also have an FMF Gnarly I have not tried. elevation = 1300 feet, temp = 85 degrees, Bike has Boyesen intake and reeds.

Any help with dialing this thing in would be greatly appreciated and thanks for all the useful info from days past on this site I've been able to read and learn from!!

Tom
Missouri, USA
 
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2004ec200 said:
Bike starts first kick, with or without choke. will idle till warm. Won't idle for long once hot. Idle just keeps slowing till it stalls. I've tryed adjusting the air screw but it dosnt seem to have much affect (weird). Bike will stall if screwed all the way in so it is working. Idle screw is all the way in. No dents in pipe, muffler may need to be repacked. spark plug looks great (not wet and a nice tan/brown color). Just a note of spooge out the exhaust, looks normal. Power valve closes and is working. Running NAVGAS (leaded airplane fuel, 100 octaine) at 45:1 with HP2 synthetic racing oil. pulled the carb and found the following:
165 main
50 slow
NBHW needle 2nd clip
Click to expand...

Hey Tom - welcome to the GG world and forum!

I'm by no means a jetting expert (more like novice), but we have a couple of EC200s and I've been trying to get my wife's (our 2nd) 200 dialed in.

First off, given your elevation and temps, my guess is your pilot jet is WAY too rich. That would explain the lack of bottom end and not wanting to do anything until you open her up a little.

I'd try going down to a 42 PJ and see how she responds. I don't know anything about that needle, but hopefully Jakobi will chime in as he has lots of knowledge (as do others on here).

Have you checked this thread: http://gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17437 ? Not trying to insult your experience or intelligence, but there are some things to check that might help get you pointed in the right direction.

If the bike starts on the first kick cold w/o choke, that's a sign that your PJ is too rich too.

Good luck getting her jetted, I'm testing changes on my wife's 200 today and will report back in the thread I started.

And again...welcome!
 
Oh yeah, thought it might be helpful to post up the settings we have on both our 200s. They're '11s and I don't know what the differences compared to the '04 - probably the older style carb (Jake?).

On my EC200 I have the following:

40 pilot
R1470 Needle @#2
172 main
A/S 1.75 turns out
#7 slide

On my wife's EC200 we have:

42 pilot
NEDH #2 (needs more testing)
175 main
A/S 2.25 turns out
#6 slide

Our typical riding is probably similar to yours, though with less humidity. We ride in 1k - 4k feet with temps in the 60s this time of year.

Post up with what you find after you do more testing...I'll have more information today too :D
 
Hi Liv2day,

Thanks for the information. That link you provided was one post I hadn't seen. Some good info there. I've also seen your last Jetting post. Didn't want to get in the middle of your discussion with my issues so started this thread.

What fuel do you use (unleaded pump or Nav Gas)?

Per the manual the standard settings are:
Unleaded fuel = 185 main and 38 pilot
leaded fuel = 160 main and 35 pilot

Per the manuals calculation sheet I should be around 154 main and 34 pilot using leaded fuel. I think I may keep the 165 main in and try a 40 pilot (smallest pilot I have at this time). Someone had written "Summer 180 main and 40 slow, Winter 182 main and 42 slow" on the cover of the manual that came with the bike. There was also two jets in the manual, a 180 and a 40. So I figured the bike had the 182/42 in it but discovered the 165/50 when I took a look.

Will definitely post my finding but would like to hear any comments/suggestions too.

Cheers,

Tom
 
2004ec200 said:
What fuel do you use (unleaded pump or Nav Gas)?

Per the manual the standard settings are:
Unleaded fuel = 185 main and 38 pilot
leaded fuel = 160 main and 35 pilot

So I figured the bike had the 182/42 in it but discovered the 165/50 when I took a look.
Click to expand...

I'm running 98 premium without ethanol (there are a few stations around and I always make sure to buy this for all our bikes).

I'd take what the manual says with a big grain of salt...lol. 154 MJ and 34MJ is super lean, maybe if you were riding at 10k feet, but that's awfully lean given your elevation.

I just made a big break through on my wife's 200; playing with the NEDH needle and ended up finding the best response at #2. #3 was ok, but still a little too rich, #2 has absolutely wonderful throttle response and it's silky smooth as I roll on.

Another caveat I need to add is I had the RB Head Mod done; waited a couple months on my 200 and that was just stupid - Ron's head mod is the best $75 I spent on the bike :D

Anyway, back to your bike. What slide does that have in it?

I'd start with either a 40 or 42 PJ and 170 or 172 MJ and test from there. I'm not sure where that NBHW needle stands on the chart, but if you're getting good response 1/4 to 3/4, it's probably in the ball park - though I'm sure that'll change as you lean out the PJ and fatten up the MJ.

If you want to make your head spin, head over to KTMTalk.com and search through some of the jetting threads on the 200s. One of their members (Jerseydevil) has a ton of knowledge and that's how I came to order the NECH and NEDH needles for my wife's 200.

Keep us posted on how it's going :cool:
 
went through a few things:

cleaned pipe
repacked muffler
cleaned the clean air filter and oiled how I like it (a light coating of 2 stroke oil, i've tried the spray on stuff and don't like it, to restrictive)
adjusted float to 16mm (was about 18 to 19 mm)
changed to premium unleaded pump fuel
put in 40 slow jet
left in the 165 main
put needle in 3rd position
carb has #6 slide

bike now idles :D, air screw is 1 3/4 turns out. Much better low end power. The bbuuwwwggg has gone away. strong mid-range and top end still screemin ;). Now to put a few miles on it and see how it does real world versus my back yard.
 
Last edited:
just an update to different jetting findings. below are the results:

172 mj
40 pj
NEDH needle #2
added over-sized power valve cover

bike ran ok. a little more bottom end and still real strong on top. Spark plug black but not wet. lots of spooge out the pipe. idle not quite right. air screw 3 turns out

Then

Changed back to NBHW needle #3 (NBHW tip looks thinner than NEDH), & Advanced timing (measures 1.8 to 2mm BTDC). Much better low end grunt, more linear power, no spooge out the exhaust, idles nice with air screw 1.75 turns out. Plug is dry, very light golden brown with a clean ground electrode (no particles).

I will be changing the main jet to a 180 next to get a little more color in the plug.

has any one else advanced their timing and what results did it have on your jetting.

Cheers.
 
2004ec200 said:
has any one else advanced their timing and what results did it have on your jetting.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

That's really interesting, having done that on either of our bikes, but it makes me wonder if doing that on my 200 would clear up the spooge I get. My wife's 200 doesn't drool at all and her jetting is relatively richer over the entire spectrum compared to mine.

The caveat is I've had the head mod done to both our bikes - have you considered this on yours? Doesn't sound like you need it now though - sounds like you found a perfect setup :cool:

I don't know the difference between the NEDH and NBHW needles...Jake? The limited searching I've done shows that the NEDH needle is on the richer side of the Zuk needles (NECK to NEDF), but I can't find squat about the NBHW. Where'd you get that needle?

Anyway, so great to hear you like the power delivery...now you make me want to learn how to adjust the timing...LOL.
 
Haven't used one of those needles myself. No idea re tapers etc.

You can still easily advance the timing on the stator on all models. If you remove the stator you'll see one bolt runs through a guide. Remove this and you'll get the range needed to advance or retard a few degrees.
 
Changed to a 180 MJ. put in a new clean plug. Ran around a little track in the yard about a mile. Still no spooge, plug insulator is brown on one side, ground electrode is just as clean as when it went in. Do have some exhaust smoke when gassing it. Seems a little more doggy just before hitting the pipe with the 180 mj vs the 172, you can even hear it. Think I'll try the NEDH needle again and see how it does with the larger mj.

By what I've read the NBHW is the stock needle. There is mention of it HERE
 
2004ec200 said:
Think I'll try the NEDH needle again and see how it does with the larger mj.

By what I've read the NBHW is the stock needle. There is mention of it HERE
Click to expand...

Be interested in hearing what you find after throwing the NEDH back into the bike. I've thought about going up a size on the MJ on my bike (currently at 172), but haven't had it flat or felt like it was lean up top.

Without knowing the taper comparison from NEDH to NBHW, it's tough to figure out how that would play with the 180MJ. But, given that NEDH is on the leaner side of the Zuk needles, that might be a good combo.

Post up what you find :D
 
Well Live2day, you and I must be on the same wavelength. It seems when you increase timing the bike burns the fuel better and of course gives more power but could be reducing lubricants (hence less spooge and a clean plug). So I first tried raising the stock needle to the 3rd clip from 2nd and reduced timing to 1.5mm to lube things up a little more. Findings were the same as before reducing timing and raising the needle a clip. So, I left the timing at 1.5mm btdc and put in the NEDH needle 2nd clip. Bike gets into the power quicker and is a little smoother into the power band. The plug ground electrode finally has some color and after about 2 miles on my small track just a tad if any spooge. I have not tried top end but I think it will be just fine seeing I don't run up there anyways. So I think I'm going to run this setup for a while a see how it works. Thanks for the comments and suggestions all.
 
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forgot to mention, I measured the diameters of the needles in different areas for those interested. I put the jaws of my calipers flat against a table top and put the needle straight down till it touched the table and made some measurements.

tip of needle at first taper:

NEDH = 1.49 mm
NBHW = 1.56 mm

bottom of jaws 21.15mm above table:

NEDH = 2.41 mm
NBHW = 2.45 mm

bottom of jaws 38mm above table:

NEDH = 2.72 mm
NBHW = 2.72 mm

I had mentioed in an earlier post then the NEDH looked thicker but I think I had the needles backward then.... :eek: my bad.. :rolleyes:

went and road another 2 miles (about ten laps) around the track and I am very happy with the current setup. Which is:

Large volume power valve cover
NEDH needle in 2nd clip
1.5mm btdc timing
180 mj
40 pj
premium unleaded fuel at 45:1 ratio
12/48 sprockets
BR8ES spark plug at 8mm gap
green .3mm base gasket
I don't think head has been modded.

Ahhhhh, this margarita taste good. Nice to finally have the jetting sorted out. :p

Cheers
 
Good work mate! Only thing I'd pick on is to say that the tapers start at the thick end of the needle, but that'd be picking at straws.
 
2004ec200 said:
Ahhhhh, this margarita taste good. Nice to finally have the jetting sorted out. :p

Cheers
Click to expand...

That's awesome man! I know exactly how you feel on that marg - feels so good to get it sorted and have the power where you want it :cool:

Food for future thought - the RB Head Mod. I waited a couple months before doing this to my 200 (mistake), but did it right "out of the box" on my wife's 200 as it's that good.

Power is incredibly crisp and comes on smoothly. And the impact it has on fuel efficiency is amazing. Prior to doing the head mod, I'd hit 38-40 miles of trail riding before hitting reserve. I did 50 miles this past Saturday and didn't hit reserve until after I was home doing the post-wash engine warm-up and quick ride up and down our road.

Now, back to that marg...lol.
 
re. the NBHW needle

my set up is:

'06 EC 200
NBHW needle 2nd clip
slow #45
main #175
airscrew 1 1/2 out
1.2mm squish
recent piston rings
boyeson carbon fibre reeds
fmf gnarly pipe
13/50 gearing, trail, tops out around 70 mph and around 70 miles to the tank
13/52 gearing, race, tops out around 60 mph
standard uk pump petrol mixed at 45:1 fully synth

My question is does anyone know of a needle similar to the NB*HW, but with a slightly narrower straight section ? I make the straight section to be 2.89mm dia., which I suspect to be a touch lean and the reason why the tickover screw needs to be wound in as far as it will go to get it to tickover. Other than that small failing, it runs great with the above set up. The surface is starting to pit on my needle, so it needs replacing and it would be good to get the tickover back into the middle of adjustment.

*the 'B' is weird looking, like an upside down greek beta letter, but I'm fairly sure this is the needle this bike came from GG with.
 
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