2006 vs 2009

[Ed Ventura]

I have a question for the guys that have rode/have time on the 05,06, 07 stuff vs the 09 stuff.

I have a 2006 DE200. Zoke/Ohlin. This is my favorite bike in my stable. The suspention is stock. I wish the forks did not dive quite as much. I can feel the high speed rebound spike. I find the forks so good for the terrain I ride that I am afraid to have those issues fixed. I can hit so much stuff off square with no deflection. The shock is great. All my pumpkin head friends are impressed on how srtaight it goes in the rocks.

I am in the market for another gasser to complement my 200. It will be a 250 or 300. I was going to stick with an 07 or 08 just to get the zokes.

I am B enduro rider from New England 165 pounds. We ride fairlly slow stuff. Very technical. Rocky, Rocky ,Rocky. The kind of terrain that if the mags say the suspention is good chances are it is to stiff.

I have read every post on here in regards to the new 09 suspention (EC and Racing). I think it is safe to say that it is stiffer and does deflect some. I dont want that.
Can the 09 Stuff be valved (LTR)to be just as good as my 06. Can the 09 bike be made to handle as well as the 06. Is it silly for me to exclude 09 bikes in my search for a new ride. Are you guys that ride 09 in the tough stuff happy with your new bikes or wish for the older suspension.

ED

 

[AZRickD]

The 08 and 09s turn a bit quicker than my 05 (which already turns quicker than any KTM I've ridden).

You'd be well served to call Les at LTR directly. He is a wealth of knowledge and schooled me on the way-stiff Race versions that have had issues with the shock.

I found that respringing my shock and fork one tick heavier (I'm 200 dry) was a major benefit. LTR did the work. He revalved the components for rocks and fixed the rebound issues with the 05.

 

[MattR]

Ed,

I'm sure the Sachs fork can be easily tuned for your riding style. It's just a matter of digging into them and making some tweaks. So you shouldn't let this be a major hangup for you on the 2009 or 2010.

If you do wish to buy a used 2007 or 2008, my 2007 EC250 will be going up for sale in the future. I weigh the same as you and my bike is setup for Michigan singletrack. We don't have near the rocks as you guys, so my bike may still be too stiff. On the other hand, your a B-rider and are hitting stuff faster than me... so perhaps it would be fine. In any case, if you interested in a nice '07 EC250, I have one sitting in my garage and going on the market soon. Just FYI...

Send me a PM if your interested.

 

[GMP]

Ed,

I'm a B rider and ride rocks. All of my bikes were revalved, but the '07 GG250 was the closest, and totally ridable out of the crate. Actually, the biggest flaw was the fast rebound, and thats an easy fix. If anything, there will be a learning curve revalving the Sachs for NETRA and ECEA rocks, but I suspect its similar to the Ohlins fork, as the shocks are similar. If the cartridge size, damper rod OD, and piston design (all the flow characteristics) are similar to the Ohlins, it should be possible to just start with valving that works there. I would call Les and talk to him, he'll give you a no BS answer.

 

[Skidad]

Personally I would get the newest bike I could afford to buy. Both forks have issues and really need revalving for New England. If it was me I would take the 48mm Sachs forks and have Javier at Trail Tricks work his magic. Yeah he's in CA but rides the same type of crap as us up in northern CA. He's also got 2 Gassers he's been working with so he knows them now. JMHO FWIW

 

[Dirt Addict]

Personally I would get the newest bike I could afford to buy. Both forks have issues and really need revalving for New England. If it was me I would take the 48mm Sachs forks and have Javier at Trail Tricks work his magic. Yeah he's in CA but rides the same type of crap as us up in northern CA. He's also got 2 Gassers he's been working with so he knows them now. JMHO FWIW

Javi does good work with 'zokes as well as wp's. and yes he rides rocks...

 

[ferguscawley]

Stay away from the 09 bikes.

Has anyone tried getting a different spring for the sachs rear shock ? - I have - Impossible

The sachs front forks on the 09s are crap also. Fork springs not easily obtained either.

The 06 or 07 with the ohlins / marzocchis are the best GG enduro bikes available at the moment in my opinion.

Spend money servicing what you have. GG made a mistake by going Sachs/Sachs and it has lost customers as a result.
I haven't ridden a 2010 bike so cannot comment on those.

 

[SpeedyManiac]

I disagree with you, fergus. The 09 I rode in Greece last year (Sachs on both ends) was absolutely awesome. The best Gasser, and best GasGas suspensions, I've ever ridden. I liked the Sachs forks over the 43mm WPs on my 01 EC200, the 48mm Ohlins on my 07 and any bike with the 45mm Marzocchis.

Try it for yourself. Some people love the Sachs, others hate it. Personally, I'm a big fan and consider it a selling point. I wouldn't want a bike with the 45mm Marzocchis.

 

[GMP]

The Sachs shock is fine, same spring as a Husky Sachs, and I'm pretty sure a Yamaha KYB spring fits. I used a 5.4 spring from my brother's '02 Husky WR250 that was on the shelf for years. Why should it be impossible to get a spring? Can't comment on the forks, but from what I hear its just a matter of breakin and valving. If anything was lost, it would be the "out of the crate" ridability of the bike with the fork for a range of riders. I wouldn't call a component crap just because its valved wrong for me, only if it can't be valved correctly.

 

[ferguscawley]

I disagree with you, fergus. The 09 I rode in Greece last year (Sachs on both ends) was absolutely awesome. The best Gasser, and best GasGas suspensions, I've ever ridden. I liked the Sachs forks over the 43mm WPs on my 01 EC200, the 48mm Ohlins on my 07 and any bike with the 45mm Marzocchis.

Try it for yourself. Some people love the Sachs, others hate it. Personally, I'm a big fan and consider it a selling point. I wouldn't want a bike with the 45mm Marzocchis.

Apart from you, I have heard nobody else ever say that. I used to sell GGs and was sick to death of people complaining to me about their suspension on the 09 bikes. I spent many many hours of my own time trying to rectify these problems (free of charge) for my customers and myself. The support from GG was next to useless.

Maybe you got a specially set-up bike when in Greece or maybe you ride hard enough to bypass the harshness, but for 95% of the people, the stock Sachs forks on the 09s are too harsh and deflect like crazy. Period.


Believe me, it pains me to say anything bad about the GG bikes. I love them and they are really rewarding to ride. I just don't want regular leisure riders to go and spend their money and be disappointed.

 

[GMP]

What did you do to fix it? Valving? Is there a stiff mid-valve or a check plate? Is it a bushing issue? Pistons flow enough oil? Everything is fixable.

 

[Skidad]

It will be interesting to see the follow up test from Chilli White on the 09 GG 300. He had Trail Tricks revalve the suspension on both ends for more plushness. Hasslbri had I think both his 09's revalved by Trail Tricks and says they are awesome. Another KTM guy also rode Hasslbri's 300 and said it was like magic. Nothing special about springs that you can't find something to work. I'm sure there is nothing special or unusual about the Sachs stuff that can't be fixed by a competent suspension tuner. JMHO.

 

[jyellard]

I think Ferguscawley's point is why spend more money on a newer bike that you will have to spend even more money on tuning the suspension, when you could spend less on a used / leftover that you have to do less work on the suspension?

Yes everything is fixable, but it is better to buy something that doesn't have to be fixed.

 

[Skidad]

I think Ferguscawley's point is why spend more money on a newer bike that you will have to spend even more money on tuning the suspension, when you could spend less on a used / leftover that you have to do less work on the suspension?

Yes everything is fixable, but it is better to buy something that doesn't have to be fixed.

I understand what you are saying but the location where the OP is located (and me) almost always requires suspension revalving to work right anyway. Obviously his call. We have local very competent tuners as well.

 

[eff]

I think Ferguscawley's point is why spend more money on a newer bike that you will have to spend even more money on tuning the suspension, when you could spend less on a used / leftover that you have to do less work on the suspension?

Yes everything is fixable, but it is better to buy something that doesn't have to be fixed.

They'd never sell a KTM with that thinking, but they sell plenty.

 

[Ed Ventura]

Thanks for all the imput guys. I a will take it all into consideration.

I am poor at giving tuners feedback. That is probablly why I cant get a tuner to get my crf, or my rm, or any off my KTM's I have had to feel as good in the rocks as my 06 GG

For me my 06 GG suspension is totally ridable stock. The best suspension I have owned for me valved or tuned.
Ed

 

[ferguscawley]

I think Ferguscawley's point is why spend more money on a newer bike that you will have to spend even more money on tuning the suspension, when you could spend less on a used / leftover that you have to do less work on the suspension?

Yes everything is fixable, but it is better to buy something that doesn't have to be fixed.

That is exactly what I meant.

Sure, suspension needs to be revalved in a lot of cases, depending on rider's weight, ability, terrain etc. As someone said, anything can be fixed, but in my opinion it should be made easy to modify. (Try this - google sachs front fork spring or sachs rear shock spring and see how easily you can buy them. Heavier/lighter springs are not even listed in the GG parts catalog for gods sake !! - they should be !!)

For years, for the majority of riders on the majority of terrain, the GasGas EC out of the box (Ohlins & Zokes) was the most capable and user-friendly bike out there that flattered average abilities. Now it's not. Now it beats the sh1t out of you.

That in my opinion is a mistake and will cost GG and their dealers their 'bread and butter' customers (ie the customers that buy the bikes for fun, use them 10-15 times a year and renew the bike every 2 years or so - ie the type of customer that pays the bills !!)

I sincerely hope they have addressed the issue on the 2010 bikes.

I'll say no more on the matter

 

[gassi]

I agree with Fergus that gg made mistake by going sachs forks, but in my experience the sachs shock is fine after revalving.

Springs seem to be hard to find as original sachs spring but in the shock it's possible to use kayaba spring as GMP said.
I don't remember is the spring exactly for the yamaha but it is couple of mm's longer and at the other end it has a slightly smaller diameter but it can be fixed by sanding off the paint and after that it should fit.
At the other end the diameter of the kayaba spring is a bit wider but it will fit.
I put the spring so that the wider diameter is facing up.

At least in the racing models sachs fork with the spring preload adjuster it's possible to use kawasaki KX 125/250 and yamaha WRF springs. I can't remember the year of the models but I think kawasaki is about 2005 and yamaha is 2006 and later.
These springs are a bit shorter than the originals but at least in the racing model thats not a problem because the original springs have so much preload even if the preload adjuster is fully open.

My experiences to the sachs forks:
I had a EC300 racing 2008 and I struggled one year with the forks without no bigger improvement.

Two different suspension tuners tried to make them work for the rocks and roots but results were always the same: The bike was actually dangerous to ride on a rocky terrain and I made a few heavy crashes because the front end was so unpredictable!

They tried many different valving, they checked that the forks slide well
(no problem with bushings, lower bushing housing was made a little looser).

It looks like the problem is that there is not enough oil flow thru the pistons.
(2010 models should have bigger diameter pistons, hope that works).

On the other hand I know a case where the pistons were modified to better oil flow but it didn't work.

I don't know anybody here in Finland who has made sachs forks work well.
It's hard to believe that it's about lack of competence of the suspension tuners because Finnish suspension tuners have made suspensions for many enduro and motocross worldchampions.

One suspension tuner even refused to take on the sachs forks to be revalved because it's so hard to get them work well!

I don't say it is impossible to make them good but it's pretty hard!

This is second hand information what I heard:
I've heard about one gas gas factoryrider who has had big problems with stiff forks.
Later I heard that they are using some kayaba stuff in their forks, I don't know exactly what but I think maybe pistons or something and they should fit right on the sachs forks.

Fergus is quite right that sachs forks will cost gas gas a lot of customers.
Many don't want to use a lot of time to develope their bikes suspension especially when it seems to be almost impossible.

My opinion is also: stay away from 09 bikes with sachs front suspension!!!

Now I have EC300 2008 with marzocchis and smile is back to my face when I'm riding!

 

[Mikael]

GG-Fans in fin

Hi Gassi ,

Nice to see that Im not the only Finnish GG-FAN out here among the majority of " fin-carrots" . Glad to hear the story about sachs-forks , this is what Ive actually waited - to get real feedback about these forks . I have my 3rd GG now and my present GG is with " uptuned " Zokes + Öhlins ( stiffer springs +shimmings ) and extremely happy with the present package ( woods & cross ) but as you now always " hungry " with new GGs & updates and feedbacks ...and your "report" was what I needed for the new GGs... Im still owning the latest "old" rear ( crack-easily -type ) . But after this I think I can live with it .. .

x b-rider

 

[300XCRider]

Thanks guys, I am picking up a 2009 300 on Wednesday. I have always liked my stuff a little on the stiff side, I am anxious to see how stiff these really are.