Adjusting the Fuel Injection

[sanderjavant]

I have a 05 450 FSE and would like to adjust the FI.

I want to see if it will help two issues.

1. It seems to be running a little rich.
2. It dies periodically when I get back on the gas from off throttle.

What are the specs and what tool or tools do I need?

Thanks for any information.

 

[bergerhag]

You need at least this: http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/VDSTS-Motorbike/VDSTS-Motorbike

 

[INABIL]

Bergerhag

If I order the Standard for $195. and the USB adaptor for $45. I'll be able to program my fuel injection or adjust a couple of things.

 

[bergerhag]

In fact I have not laid hands on that software myself, but I don't think there is much more you can adjust except the overall fuel trim. Readouts from sensors, and some error indications is available, and you can reset the Throttle Position Sensor if you have had the sensor removed for some reason.

Let me ask a few mates and I'll get back here.

 

[mike989]

Bergerhag

If I order the Standard for $195. and the USB adaptor for $45. I'll be able to program my fuel injection or adjust a couple of things.

Yes, you can adjust the trim, and check all the FI componets.

Mike.

 

[Tom Zelko]

fuel injector adj.

I bought all that stuff from techno research and all it does is tell me that things are ok when they are not. We adjusted the thing by ear and it ran just a little lean then quite running again. I have owned 8 GasGas's and have to say my 05 450 has given me more troubles than it is worth.

 

[rpduc]

I don't know anything about the specific EFI that GG uses, but I'll bring this up as I haven't seen it come up in discussions related to EFI on dirt bikes. Not that I've been all that much attention since I have a 2 smoker...

I'll be able to program my fuel injection or adjust a couple of things.

If the EFI is like my Duc the ECU is not reprogrammable or remappable. To actually alter the fuel air map you'd need an add on module like Powercommander or a replacement ECU. Maybe the dirt bike ecus are different but talk of "trim only" sounds very familiar. I think "trim" means to push the overall map richer or leaner, perhaps using some graduated scheme, but it does not allow for specific edits to the air fuel tables and that's really where the "meat" is on EFI systems. There are endless discussions about difficulties tuning EFI on various road bike boards.

The Technoresearch software will allow you to make whatever adjustments are possible with the stock configuration but again if it's anything like the DUC EFI trim adjustments may be insufficient if you make any significant changes to breathing like opening the exhaust or airbox mods.

 

[coolum74]

Efi

Hey All,

A long winded story but when I first bought my new 06FSE450 it ran like an absolute pig during the run in period and i thought i had bought a lemon. when i did the first service @ 200klm (inc plug change and oil) I found a white transite plate in the air box behind the air filter that restricted the air flow down to approx 40mm hole. I rang the dealer and was told the bike was running lean on the pre delivery and the efi was adjusted to suit. Now they are telling me not to worry it will be ok. Where do I stand.. Now it is running awesome I love my Gasser and am proud to be a part of this niche crew...Adam

 

[Sandman]

The VDSTS from Techno is a diagnostic tool and trim adjustment tool.
You still need some mecanical know how because it is only checking electrical values and not mechanical problems.

With the trim adjustment, the only way to get it correct is to use a C/O meter. Setting your trim to 45 or 35 or what ever will not work and one bike is differant than another.You may get it close but you wont get it correct.
Some bikes could be at 5 and others at 50 to get the correct c/o.
The best place to check the C/O is at the header pipe. At between 80 and 85deg C and the reading should be 3.5 to 4%.

Adjusting the TPS will reset it to the ECU but if the throttle butterfly has been altered the VDSTS will not reset the butterfly adjustment. Do not adjust the stop screw at the back of the throttle body as this will put the readings out and the bike will run rough.

The Gas Gas EFI is simple and the biggest probblem is Gas Gas did not give dealers enough info on it, this is the same for most euro bikes.

I get told all the time that Gas Gas or Serco or Husky have fuel injection problems but 90% of the time it is not the problem of the bike but who is working on it and that's because they can not get any info from the manufacturers.

I have been working on EFI bikes for 30 years and Gas Gas for 6 years and the Gas Gas is a simple system, it just needs the Spanish to give out more info so people can understand it.
Get yourself a C/O meter or try and ask your car mechanic if you can use his.

The new 2008 Gas Gas EFI is great and needs no adjustment due to now having a MAP sensor. No C/O adjustment and you can adjust the idle but the problem will be that Gas Gas will not be able to supply information so mechanics that know nothing about it will knock it and say its unreliable.

If you dont think i am correct in what I am telling you just ring Techo and they will explain it to you or I would sugest to e-mail the factory and tell them to get a work shop manual that has everything in it, last time I looked at a Gas Gas manual it had about as much info as a sheet of toilet paper.

 

[iancp5]

I would sugest to e-mail the factory and tell them to get a work shop manual that has everything in it, last time I looked at a Gas Gas manual it had about as much info as a sheet of toilet paper.

I'd say it was less useful.

 

[cal_tony]

Needless to say, I am not all that impressed with the EFI on my 04 FSE 450.
On the positive side it has no adjustments. Oh, you can include that as a negative as well. Also, on the plus side is that my GG runs very well with the yel/blu wire disconnected. Sometimes its a little hard to start. Other times it starts immediately. I have yet to figure that out. Once it does start, it's ready to run. The gas mileage is a lot worse that I would expect. Even taking it slow my best mpg has been around 40. Usually it's less. Using the conservation or rainy day mode results in worse mpg and it just doesn't run right with this setting.

My prior experience with Motorcycle EFI is limited to the EFI on my CBR. And let me say it has a mind of it's own and it's mind is very good. I guess comparing the two would be to say that one (the GG) and the other exhibits the best of what's available.

If it wasn't for the fact that it ran good once started, I would pull the whole setup and replace it with a 39mm FCR.

The KTM 690 runs an EFI setup and many users report mpg to be between 45-60 mpg. Even my 1000cc CBR gets better mpg that my 450.

Somethings wrong and I haven't found any adjustments to improve it.

Tony

 

[coolum74]

Hey Cal,
Just a question about mileage. How hard do you ride your bike (Bloody hard I dare say) and how does it compare to other performance bikes.

Thanks

Adam

 

[cal_tony]

Adam,

Depends. Right now the GG 450 is setup as a street Supermoto so that puts a different spin on hard. It's setup with 13-36 gearing so at times I will ride it for a mile or so at 85 mph. Most of the time I ride from 35-75 mph on mountainous paved roads. Ride it like I was on a paved Motocross track. With it's 2 quart oil capacity and dry sump it make for a perfect Street SM.

I had a 510 Husky which I thought was a little faster but not much. The GG and the Husky handled about the same. Very nice. I just didn't think the Husky had much life expectancy on the road compared to the GG.

In comparison my DRZ 400sm handles awful. In corners that the GG feels well within it's limits the DRZ feels scary. However from 75 mph up the DRZ feels much better. It will cruise at 85 mph without much bouncing around maybe because it weighs more but also because it vibrates less and has a much larger exhaust system (over 2" id).

The GG has a cruising range of 80 miles(mpg 35-40mpg), the DRZ with its better gas mileage and 4 gal tank has a fill up range of over 200 miles(45-60 mpg). So for most of my riding I use my DRZ. Second would be the GG. Third most used is the 1000cc CBR. It's a good Highway bike and it's top speed on back roads is limited only by common sense(40-55mpg) .

I have dirt wheels for the GG and the DRZ but unless it's a casual ride on a fire road, the DRZ's dirt days are over. It would be unfair and dangerous to compare the 2 on dirt.

Anyway, those are my impressions.


Tony

 

[jenkitchen1006]

hi guys im dave with a 450 fse on a 03. is there anyone out there that can help me.Iv just bought a gas gas. when i bought the bike the guy couldent get it to rev up ,but i took the bike for less money.I dissconected the throttle position sensor and the bike now wants to not idle .but has quarter to mid range .the guy i bought it of put a new throttle body on .can anyone help

 

[rpduc]

I'm far from an expert, but the fuel injection is totally dependent on the throttle position sensor for metering fuel so if that's disconnected all bets are off. It's not a simple matter to reset the throttle position sensor either. (I'm only familiar with the EFI on my Duc but I think it's similar) It's an electronic calibration. You need software (Technoresearch ??) and a cable to connect to the ECU to make what minimal adjustments are available to you. You will also need a air fuel meter to know how your tweaks are affecting combustion.

IMO EFI is a PIA on a dirt bike. Actually I've more than once wished I had carbs on my Duc. It is not a shadetree mechanic type operation.

I'd say find a shop that can set the thing up correctly.

 

[GMP]

You can't just disconnect the TPS on an EFI system. It needs to be reconnected and the TPS referance reset in the ECU. It undoubtedly threw an error code for the TPS. Basically the TPS is a potentiometer (variable resistor), on the throttle body and provides a voltage output proportional to throttle position. The ECU has an onboard ADC(analog to digital converter) that converts this voltage data and uses it(and other inputs) to determine fuel mass for injection, which is done by adjusting injector pulse width. When you "reset the TPS", what you do is store the value of this voltage data in the ECU when the throttle is closed, or a predetermined and mechanically set angle. This is now the referance point.

The Technoresearch software/cable is only $200 and worth it if your going to keep and maintain the bike. An AFR meter is nice but not a must have, you can tune trim by feel just like jetting the pilot circuit on a carb. Trim has little to no effect at larger throttle openings.

 

[Crankin04]

Hey GMP,

I have a 04' GG FSE 450 and I bought the technoresearch VDST and cable, got it hooked up to my GG and everything working. Adjusted fuel trim to about 45 and it's running great there. The only thing I need to do now is reset my TPS.

Is their a simple way to do this, or a specific procedure? When I hook the ECU to the cable and bring up the software, I can go to the Adjust Settings section and it shows TPS, and I can click it and it will electronically adjust it. Is that all I need to do and follow logical instructions after that, or something mechanically too?

Thanks for your help!

Crankin04

 

[GMP]

My VDST experience is on a Ducati with an idle air control stepper (no user mechanical idle speed/throttle angle control). If the FSE is like this then yes, you are correct and done. If the bike has a screw adjustment for throttle angle/idle speed, then its quite possible that this will have to be backed off completely or set within a range of degrees on the VDST display before the reference is taken (TPS reset). My Cannondale was like this. Too bad VDST doesn't display the current TPS reference like the Optimum Cannondale software did.

Sorry I have no specific '04 FSE experience, I hope someone here with an FSE can comment.

 

[Crankin04]

My VDST experience is on a Ducati with an idle air control stepper (no user mechanical idle speed/throttle angle control). If the FSE is like this then yes, you are correct and done. If the bike has a screw adjustment for throttle angle/idle speed, then its quite possible that this will have to be backed off completely or set within a range of degrees on the VDST display before the reference is taken (TPS reset). My Cannondale was like this. Too bad VDST doesn't display the current TPS reference like the Optimum Cannondale software did.

Sorry I have no specific '04 FSE experience, I hope someone here with an FSE can comment.

So I have hooked up the technoresearch VDST software and increased my fuel trim a little bit (was at 22 now at 35, then tested at 40, 42, 45) and also reset my TPS using the Buell procedure and it said PASSED.

I also had my valves checked a couple months ago and all looks good according to the service shop that did so. Made sure their's plenty of Gas and my bike battery has full power and fully charged, but I still cannot get my stupid bike to start cold. And if I do, it's like almost an hour later

What the heck else can I try? I thought the TPS Reset was supposed to help with this...?

Thanks for help.

Crankin04

 

[bergerhag]

How do you go about a cold start? Proper procedure would be: key on, wait until fuel pump stops. Give it a short burst on the starter, only a few revs. if it wont fire, release button and start over. And do try he WOT start too, it works.