Battery problem?

[tzsuzuki]

I purchased a 2015 xc300e racing this past June. The battery that came in it failed in 6 weeks. The dealer gave me a new one, thought nothing more about it. A month ago that battery seemed to get weak, wasn't spinning starter. I was using a battery tender on it to keep it up even though I ride it at least once a week.
I bought a Lithuim ion battery this time around, partly for the weight savings. This morning it wouldn't spin the starter. I kicked it took many kicks to get it started which I thought odd, it was cold though.
I rode about ten miles returned to the truck for a break. When I went to start it it wouldn't. This time the lights didn't work or the horn. No spark either.
When I got home I put the old lead acid battery in, lights and horn work, kicked it over started. I measured the voltage when running 14 volts.
Do I have some underlying problem causing this?
Why wouldn't the bike start with a dead battery? I remember reading that once a lithium battery is discharged to a certain point it has some protection built in that prevents further discharge and damage.
Any thoughts?

 

[Lotus54]

I have up in the Lithium batteries, they don't work for a darn in the cold.

 

[twowheels]

Lithium batteries like to be "pre-stressed" a little to work in the cold. Engage the starter button a little, for a short time, to cause some draw on the battery, and then it should be to full power.

Still, considering the design of the starter it may be best to take a cue from the Austrians and consider the e-start to be a "re" starter, using your leg for the first fire in the morning.

 

[tzsuzuki]

Lithium batteries like to be "pre-stressed" a little to work in the cold. Engage the starter button a little, for a short time, to cause some draw on the battery, and then it should be to full power.

Still, considering the design of the starter it may be best to take a cue from the Austrians and consider the e-start to be a "re" starter, using your leg for the first fire in the morning.

While I agree about using it as more of a re-starter, I am still wondering why it would not start and showed no spark at the plug with the dead lithium battery?

 

[Lotus54]

Charging voltage at about 14Vdc is good (it will change depending on RPM to some degree-best if not over about 14.3)

I dont know for certain how the ignition is on those bikes, but most I see (similar) are totally separate.

 

[hamilton]

When I first got my 15 it had a start problem one time.
Power indicator on multifunction switch not lite, no power to lights, but would kick start. My gut feeling was a key switch/ key switch wiring problem.
Started with the basics first, good connections at battery, removed the start system fuse and checked, looked ok and resistance was good. Replaced the fuse any how. It hasn't missed a beat since then, but I really think it was in the key switch.

 

[tzsuzuki]

When I first got my 15 it had a start problem one time.
Power indicator on multifunction switch not lite, no power to lights, but would kick start. My gut feeling was a key switch/ key switch wiring problem.
Started with the basics first, good connections at battery, removed the start system fuse and checked, looked ok and resistance was good. Replaced the fuse any how. It hasn't missed a beat since then, but I really think it was in the key switch.

I suspected the key switch as well. When it happened I didn't have a electrical meter. When I got home I tested the key switch it passed. Once it's all sorted I plan to strip off the key switch and as much wiring as I can, including the headlight. I don't use it on the street and where I live even if I did go down the occasional dirt road it's not a issue.
Anybody know where the front number plate that Geoff Aaron uses came from?

 

[CombatYoga]

Hi John,

I have a '14 GG 300. I removed the front headlight/number plate and bought a kit from GoFasters that contained a replacement number plate - Honda CRF450R (not sure what year), but also contained an aluminum top bracket to hold the plate. It was simple to install. I would guess Matto or Halls would probably have that kit now.

BTW, there are some great articles on here on how to remove that multi-function starter/headlight switch assembly, as well on how to remove the key; I did that a few weeks ago.

Final thing to mention is changing the kickstarter out to a Yamaha model - one of the quickest and best mods you can do. Articles on here as well for that.


Good luck!

 

[Neil E.]

If you have no spark when kicking, the key switch is usually the problem. In the OFF position it keeps the ignition circuit grounded. If the switch is bad and fails to open the contacts when turned to ON you have no spark.

The easy fix on the trail is to simply unplug the ignition switch connector.

 

[tzsuzuki]

Total loss system?

With my old lead acid battery installed which I know is toast would spin the starter after a full charge), I went for a ride this morning. I also installed my trail tech voyager so I could see the voltage while it was running. What I found was interesting.
While running the charging voltage to the battery was around 14. It jumped around between 11 and 15 at idle but smoothed out a bit at higher rpm.
Had no issues on the ride. Came back and before I put the bike in the truck I tried one more thing. With the bike running I turned on the light, low then high. The voltage dropped,from 14 to 8!
My interpretation of this is as follows.
My charging system (stator) not sure of the correct term must be faulty. Which may explain why 3 batteries failed in 6 months
Since I has running the Lithuim battery on Saturday, I believe once the voltage dropped below a certain point the battery's protection circuit kicked in and broke the circuit through the battery. Leading me to believe that the bike is not putting out enough juice to run the bike without the battery. A total loss system.
I am going to exchange the Lithuim battery. Before I re install it I will try running the bike with the key switch out of the loop.
I will then reinstall the Lithuim battery and monitor it with the voyager.
Is the a ohm reading or some other test I can perform that will prove this out?

 

[Neil E.]

You have an interesting problem. Keep in mind that the stator output is not that high. It should maintain a charged battery, but will not charge a low battery in a reasonable time period.

The voltage reading on my Voyager also jumps around although I don't look at the reading very often. Mine varies from 12.25 to 15.25 volts. This also depends on what setting my LED lights are on. At 40% output (what I use as a low beam) the voltage is closer to the high reading. At 100% output (night riding) the voltage is closer to the low reading. An hour of night riding will drop the voltage low enough that the estart will not crank the engine, so I kickstart when needed.

It sounds like your stator is reaching the necessary voltage but not delivering enough current. Try cleaning all of the wiring connections to see if that helps. Make sure the female spade connectors grip well. You may need to squeeze them down with pliers. Aslo clean any ground points.

I use the 8cell "Ballistic" brand battery and it seems fine for my needs. It is close in size to the stock battery but lighter in weight. There are some Ohm readings posted in this forum that you can use to check your stator.

I used to run my heated grips on DC but they would pull the battery voltage down too quickly. I now run them on AC power. If I did more night riding I would install an Electrex 3 phase charging system.

The stock 2K3 system is only really capable of running a typical lighting setup (35W headlight or equivalent). Any significant electrical loads that are added require more than the single phase stock stator can provide. This is even more important for those of us riding mostly single track at partial throttle (like me).

 

[tzsuzuki]

Well I feel like a fool

Thanks to everybody that chimed in.
So this morning I had a Epiphany of sorts. I remember replacing the bulb with one I found at Walmart. I don't ride at night except for the odd occasion when I get back around dark, and the light isn't much good anyway.
Apparently I installed a 60/55 watt bulb (stock 35w) So that was drawing done my battery. When I had the lithium battery installed, I must have ran that down too. When the bike didn't start the light must have been on.
I tested this out, I removed the battery but left the voyager connected to the battery leads. Bike fired right up voltage good. I shut it off turned on the light, wouldn't start. Turned light off bike started. While running turned light on voltage went down to 8
All this from choosing the wrong bulb!!
For some reason I thought the output was much higher than 60 watts

 

[Neil E.]

One thing to carify here is that your bike should always be able to kickstart. The stator ignition winding is separate from the lighting windings and will always power the CDI. A shorted kill circuit is the usual thing that prevents kickstarting.

Estarting is a different situation since it is totally dependent on the condition of your battery.