E-start bendix not bendixing :)
- Thread starter rgranger
- Start date
Did you replace the battery? Mine would spin up without engaging. Worked right only 50%. A Lithium Ion battery will "throw" the bendix out much faster so it engages right away. I put some synthetic engine oil on the bendix and light wipe of grease on the ring gear. I even did some gear tooth profiling on the bendix gear, but it didn't help. The Yuasa battery is weak.
Perhaps some of the return springs are too strong. Was there any change in the part numbers for these units?
Jump your bike battery from a car or truck. If the bendix engages every time, you know it's a battery issue.
Perhaps some of the return springs are too strong. Was there any change in the part numbers for these units?
Jump your bike battery from a car or truck. If the bendix engages every time, you know it's a battery issue.
rgranger
Gold Level Site Supporter
No, i thought that may be the issue, but my smart charger says that the battery is good, maybe that is good for nothing 
do you remember which Li ion you went with? does it recharge normally, I think that some of them now do not need a special charger.
I guess I will wait to see if I have a job this afternoon after my boss just blew up before ordering one.
do you remember which Li ion you went with? does it recharge normally, I think that some of them now do not need a special charger.
I guess I will wait to see if I have a job this afternoon after my boss just blew up before ordering one.
The Yuasa would charge fine and showed OK voltage, but it just wouldn't drive the bendix out fast enough. There was sufficient power to crank the engine IF it engaged.
The LI battery info on the internet warned against charging at over 14.4V, so I did not rush to try one. The voltage on my bike measured as high as 15.6V which is way over that, but the description on the box indicated that up to 15.0V was OK. My regulator output bounced all over the place with the Yuasa battery (12.8 to 15.2 depending on what loads I had on).
I even isolated the stator ground and installed a TrailTech voltage regulator. That experiment did not work out to my expectations, so I put the stock regulator back on. I suspect the Yuasa battery was at fault, but have not done enough testing to verify this. I should post some detail about the stator modifications as it may be interesting to someone.
Shorai LFX14L2-BS12 is what you want.
The LI battery info on the internet warned against charging at over 14.4V, so I did not rush to try one. The voltage on my bike measured as high as 15.6V which is way over that, but the description on the box indicated that up to 15.0V was OK. My regulator output bounced all over the place with the Yuasa battery (12.8 to 15.2 depending on what loads I had on).
I even isolated the stator ground and installed a TrailTech voltage regulator. That experiment did not work out to my expectations, so I put the stock regulator back on. I suspect the Yuasa battery was at fault, but have not done enough testing to verify this. I should post some detail about the stator modifications as it may be interesting to someone.
Shorai LFX14L2-BS12 is what you want.
rgranger
Gold Level Site Supporter
I just received this from my dealer...
I don't think that this is specific to this issue as mine isn't even engaging but when the bike was new I had some meshing issues and a bigger gasket helped. it looks like I stumbled onto what they are suggesting but with specifics and not trial and error.
Well, my PDF is too big. Glenn can you PM me with an email so I can send you a copy?
Rob
I don't think that this is specific to this issue as mine isn't even engaging but when the bike was new I had some meshing issues and a bigger gasket helped. it looks like I stumbled onto what they are suggesting but with specifics and not trial and error.
Well, my PDF is too big. Glenn can you PM me with an email so I can send you a copy?
Rob
There is at least one previuos thread on this issue here. As you mention, the solution for some was adding a gasket.
For me, my starter won't engage cold, but does fine when the bike has warmed up. I don't mind kicking my bike in the parking lot, as long as I don't have to do it while sliding backwards downhill or while stuck in a creek.
For me, my starter won't engage cold, but does fine when the bike has warmed up. I don't mind kicking my bike in the parking lot, as long as I don't have to do it while sliding backwards downhill or while stuck in a creek.
rgranger
Gold Level Site Supporter
if it is this one: http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9033&highlight=gasket+starter
that was me also, but this is a different issue, not that it is engaging poorly, it sounds like it is not even extending to engage.... whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and that is it.
that was me also, but this is a different issue, not that it is engaging poorly, it sounds like it is not even extending to engage.... whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr and that is it.
A thicker gasket will correct the condition where the gears are snug and need a bit more play to operate. I have some notes in this thread that might help (note: conclusions in the first post are wrong)
http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9914
Check your gear mesh by taping up the assembly (as shown in the post). This should be the first step so you know the gear mesh is OK.
Rob, what does the bendix feel like when it is out of the bike? It has to move really smooth. If it is too dry the sprag clutch might be worn. You can see the sprag (one-way) elements when you slide the spring cover down. They allow for over-run when the engine starts. They have to hook up when cranking. It sounds like yours isn't throwing out at all (along the cam groove). Too dry to slide or maybe the cam groove is worn from being dry?
Any better operation using a car battery?
http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9914
Check your gear mesh by taping up the assembly (as shown in the post). This should be the first step so you know the gear mesh is OK.
Rob, what does the bendix feel like when it is out of the bike? It has to move really smooth. If it is too dry the sprag clutch might be worn. You can see the sprag (one-way) elements when you slide the spring cover down. They allow for over-run when the engine starts. They have to hook up when cranking. It sounds like yours isn't throwing out at all (along the cam groove). Too dry to slide or maybe the cam groove is worn from being dry?
Any better operation using a car battery?
rosco
Gold Level Site Supporter
I had alot of issues with my electric start but after alot of trial and error I seem to have it working almost flawlessly. First I had problems with it engaging and then kicking out as soon as the bike started to turn over. Then after alot of shimming and messing around with the bendix it started to hang up and wouldn't disengage. I installed a thicker gskt. and cured that problem. It also seemed to help it engage better but wasn't a complete fix. The last thing that I did that seemed to help the engaging problem was stretching the bendix spring. If you rotate the bendix gear so that it is fully extended you are able to reach in and pull the spring out. If you are careful you can stretch the spring a little. Again you have to be careful so you don't damage the spring or over stretch it. Alot of you guys are probably not going to want to do this to a good bendix. But I was to the point were I didn't really care if I ruined it or not. Luckily it worked and my starter is working better than it ever has. Good luck! Ross
rgranger
Gold Level Site Supporter
my battery is good, same issue of free spinning with battery jumped to hot start.
I didn't see how to get the spring out without removing the clip on the down end of the bendix and I started to bugger that up pretty good so I stopped.
so, question one: how to get that damn clip out.
question two: how to get the spring out with out first removing the damn clip?
Thanks
Rob
I didn't see how to get the spring out without removing the clip on the down end of the bendix and I started to bugger that up pretty good so I stopped.
so, question one: how to get that damn clip out.
question two: how to get the spring out with out first removing the damn clip?
Thanks
Rob
That clip is wound very tight in the groove. The manufacturer must have a single pass insertion tool that gets it installed perfectly. I didn't take mine off as I was sure I'd never get it back on snug.
I think Roscoe is referring to stretching the spring while it's still assembled. He must have moved the cover pieces enough to get at the spring. Stretching the spring would only help if you have a "fail to release after cranking" problem. The stronger spring would tend to retract the bendix faster. Based on my experience I thought the spring tension was about right and I left it alone. Shimming the cover makes more sense so the bendix gear has good play to the ring gear.
To me a stronger spring would actually make it harder for the bendix to engage when cranking. May I suggest something else? What about testing the cranking by jumping directly at the motor? This means leaving the plastic cover off. Pop the aluminum spacers out of the cover or use different bolts to hold everything together. Does it work any better if you put the jumper cable right on the motor stud? This would bypass any issue like poor connections.
I think Roscoe is referring to stretching the spring while it's still assembled. He must have moved the cover pieces enough to get at the spring. Stretching the spring would only help if you have a "fail to release after cranking" problem. The stronger spring would tend to retract the bendix faster. Based on my experience I thought the spring tension was about right and I left it alone. Shimming the cover makes more sense so the bendix gear has good play to the ring gear.
To me a stronger spring would actually make it harder for the bendix to engage when cranking. May I suggest something else? What about testing the cranking by jumping directly at the motor? This means leaving the plastic cover off. Pop the aluminum spacers out of the cover or use different bolts to hold everything together. Does it work any better if you put the jumper cable right on the motor stud? This would bypass any issue like poor connections.
rosco
Gold Level Site Supporter
Rob, The spring that I am talking about is the upper weight spring. It is a long skinny spring that wraps around the centrifugal weights. In order to see it you have to have the bendix gear extended out in the engaged position. We work on alot of polaris's with this same type of bendix so I am very familiar with them and have a pretty clear understanding of how they work.
Like I said though, I was getting tired of mine not working and felt that I had nothing to loose. If you are not familiar with these type of bendix's I would advise you not to mess with it.
I will get on gofasters website today and see if that spring is available. I would atleast make sure a new spring is available before I took a chance on ruining the one thats already on there.
The assembly clip on the end is a pain to get off and I wouldn't advise taking it off. Its a one time clip and will not retain its shape when you go to reinstall it.
Like I said though, I was getting tired of mine not working and felt that I had nothing to loose. If you are not familiar with these type of bendix's I would advise you not to mess with it.
I will get on gofasters website today and see if that spring is available. I would atleast make sure a new spring is available before I took a chance on ruining the one thats already on there.
The assembly clip on the end is a pain to get off and I wouldn't advise taking it off. Its a one time clip and will not retain its shape when you go to reinstall it.
I guess the question for Rob is: Do you get a "gear buzz" from the pinion running on the ring gear OR do you just get a "starter whine"?
Starter whine means that the sprag elements are not grabbing, so tightening the upper spring can help force them into contact and drive the shaft. If a tiny flat is worn on the edge of the sprags, it takes more spring force to make them hookup.
Gear buzz means the the sprag elements are working and the starting motor does not have enough zip to "force" the gear engagement. This usually indicates a weak battery.
It's a tricky balance of forces because the pinion is already turning when it is moving to engage the ring gear. Bendix systems usually have a bit of gear clashing noise during meshing.
The info here shows how the sprags elements pivot to lock up http://www.gmnbt.com/freewheel.htm
Starter whine means that the sprag elements are not grabbing, so tightening the upper spring can help force them into contact and drive the shaft. If a tiny flat is worn on the edge of the sprags, it takes more spring force to make them hookup.
Gear buzz means the the sprag elements are working and the starting motor does not have enough zip to "force" the gear engagement. This usually indicates a weak battery.
It's a tricky balance of forces because the pinion is already turning when it is moving to engage the ring gear. Bendix systems usually have a bit of gear clashing noise during meshing.
The info here shows how the sprags elements pivot to lock up http://www.gmnbt.com/freewheel.htm
rgranger
Gold Level Site Supporter
Just whine, no gear grind or bump. I will try bypassing the battery tonight and see what happens. I have a very good battery in the KTM that I can move over for a test. but I have also put the charger in "start" mode which puts out quite a few amps. On the KTM bendix, I can spin it by and and with a little load it will extend, the GG bendix just slips and never really tries to extend and if I manually pull it out and where it would tend to lock on the ktm, it just spins with no drag. I am starting to think that the clutching bits aren't working and are slipping.
rgranger
Gold Level Site Supporter
Hall's is trying to locate a part. Sent Clay a note to see if there were any alternate sources locally. Kind of like that $200 porsche ignition switch that you can get at VW for $80 and that they actually have in stock 
Thanks for the input and suggestions everyone!
Thanks for the input and suggestions everyone!
