EC 200 vs KTM 200:

[jgas]

I have read on this site about the 200s but can someone try to give me a comparison with the older GG 200 opposed to the older KTM 200s? I'm mainly interested in the power delivery comparo. I have a really nice 01 GG XC with a blown motor and am thinking of just buying another running GG to get a motor and then have a parts bike since I really like the handling of my 250. I have owned a GG300, and liked it but I think I'm smoother and faster on the 250.

I have decent speed skills but am getting older, near 50, and usually go fastest on whatever bike tires me out the least. I like de-tuned KTM 300s, but might like a tuned-up 200? My preference for power delivery is "4 stroke like". I don't like any "hit", or to put it another way, like the hit right off idle with no surprises
On most bikes I ride a "gear high". I like a very linear and smooth power delivery, and big power is fine as long as it is easy to manage.

I ride almost exclusively in technical terrain with abrupt elevation changes and extreme rocks. The stuff I ride is considered by most to be on the extreme side of technical, but with some occasionally wide open top gear sections.

Thanks, Jeff.

 

[GMP]

Jeff,

The 200 motor is the same weight as the 250/300. Where it feels lighter is on the trail under power, through turns at speed. For pure technical riding I'm not sure if it would be an advantage, because at crawling speeds its just the same dead weight with less torque. I might be inclined to rebuild your 250 and tune it for smooth torquey power. 36mm carb, shim the PV to open later, head mod, etc.

That said, I had the idea of building a 200 motor and putting it in my '07 frame for my son, because an 85 to a 250 is just too much of a jump. I found a motor local from a part out that needs a replate on the cyl and a side cover repaired (fixable). Problem is its an '04 so it won't fit my frame. It will fit in an '01 frame. If your interested in this get back to me here.

 

[firffighter]

We currently have a '99 Gasgas EC200 and a '98 KTM 200exc in our garage right now.

The gasser is my son's bike and it is in perfect condition, very low hours and is set up with LTR suspension, LTR powervalve cover, jetted spot on and FMF exhaust.

The KTM is my bike. I just picked it up and it has 600 original miles on it and is set up similar with JD jet kit, FMF exhaust, $900 in suspension upgrade, etc.

Both bikes are jetted spot on and we ride mostly tight trails, 2nd-3rd gear terrain. Both bikes are an absolute blast to ride in tight terrain. I came off of a KTM300, then Gasgas DE300 and currently have a Gasgas EC250. The 200's FEEL so much lighter than the 250/300's. They are very easy to ride and require a lot less energy in the tight stuff. The power delivery in both bikes is very manageable and is acutally fun compared to the slower reving larger 2-strokes. You can still lug both bikes well and ride a gear high without issue. Obviously, if you are doing a technical climb, the 300 has more torque and can be lugged up and over most anything. The 200's actually do pretty darn well and my KTM can climb anything that I climbed with the 300, just a bit differently.

If you are used to 4-stroke like power, the 300 might be more up your alley. But, the 200's are less tiring.

Gasser vs KTM 200:

Gasgas: Feels heavier, has less low end delivery and the ergos are better for a smaller rider.

KTM: *I have a Rekluse Z-start Pro, so that makes a huge difference
Feels like a mt. bike with a motor, very flickable, more aggressive ergos, more low end and can be lugged better than the gasser. I can climb absolutely anything that I could on my 300 with ease with the Rekluse and I am a lot less tired at the end of the day.

Both are an absolute hoot to ride and we are loving riding these smaller bore bikes.

 

[LAWMAN]

I raced '98 & '00 KTM 200s back in the day. I have a little time on an older GG 200 (not much). The KTM & GG 200s are very different. I'd rank 'em like this:

KTM
a rocket, for a 200
very light weight, & feels like it
awful suspension stock (even the new 1s are PDS only, correct?)
if you get an EXC/XC-W, you will hate the gearing--1st is super low, 6th is super tall, 2-5 are tight.
the 98-99's "right-side up" fork is very flexy

GG
heavy for a 200, & feels like it
way better handling & suspension
smooth power, but soemtimes that's not what you want on a 200

 

[firffighter]

I would disagree a bit with LAWMAN.

I love the gearing on the '98, but I researched and have a 14/46 ratio that works perfect in the Oregon woods. 1st is granny gear for super ups and downs and top speed is about 65-70.

Yes, the early KTM's had poor suspension and a Gasser stock is better. Fortunately for me, my KTM has nearly $1000 of suspension work from C Cylcle and it is absolutely amazing in the woods. Luckily I didn't have to pay for it!

I would agree with LAWMAN that the KTM has more aggessive power delivery, which is very fun, but can be tammed with PV settings, jetting and with the Rekluse. The KTM does better though when ridden a gear high compared to the gasser.

The Gasgas EC200 is a very fun bike for sure. It feels more like a KDX in terms of power delivery, ergos and weight. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the KDX and the EC200 are about as good a tight woods bike as it gets.

The KTM just feels like it likes to be pushed hard and the harder you push, the better it responds. The Gasgas feels perfectly at home in the tight woods and with the suspension and tight turning, can make life fun and easy.

 

[LAWMAN]

firf brings up some important points; I am in the deep south, & when I was racing 200s, it was mostly on very flat terrain. I too ended up with 14-46, or even 45, but I still always wished the bike had the XC gearbox. on the 2000, I had it ported for more power everywhere, then had a top end pipe & a flywheel weight--it ran like about a 230. I finally sold it because I was tired of fighting to pass guys on 250s in tight sections of hare scrambles races, then having them blow back by me with ease in the open fields.

 

[jgas]

I think the gearing on my 01 XC is perfect. Nice low 1st and plenty of speed in 6th. I really praise GG for that setup.

I guess I am old school in some ways. I LIKE flexy forks. KDX conventional forks are great! Until you hit a rut or rock with the foot of overhang below the axel and fly over the bars. Most bikes with USD forks seem to react very slowly, have too much "stiction" at the seals, don't flex enough in extreme rocks, and blow seals far too often. WP 50mm conventionals are the best I've ridden, and DRZ 400 E forks are almost as good. Again, I ride in mostly extremely technical terrain with some of the worst rocks in the nation. I can go fast on smooth terrain on almost any bike and I'm nearly 50, Jeff don't jump unless they add an MX section on a HS course, and even then I ain't doing any doubles unless they are super safe.

For 2 stroke motors, I love KTM 200s power delivery. More torque feel than most 250s, but they do run out early on top. On my GG 250 XC I find I am "in between gears" far too often. It won't lug then snap onto the pipe quick enough, and if I try to keep it on the pipe it gets squirrely whenever I hit anything that compresses the shock. I like lots of power but want it to be in direct relation to how far I twist the throttle with absolutely NO surpirses at any time. I am actually fastest on a KTM 400 XCW for an hour or so,or even a DRZ 400, but at some point the lighter weight of a smooth 2 stroke keeps me fresh. For a 2 hr Scramble it's probably a wash. For a long course Enduro, I think I prefer a 2 stroke as long as it's smooth and predictable. I may ride some Nat. Enduros next year so I'm looking for a bike that is very predictable, easy to ride, and not tiring.

I think I may try a 265cc bore on my 250 with all the mods to get rid of the hit and make it have smooth low end delivery. I am hoping that the extra 15cc won't make it noticeably harder to kick.

Another problem I have is my kickstart foot and leg have been severely damaged. It gets weak after about an hour of riding and my foot hurts so bad I hate to kickstart a bike unless it is really easy. GG 300s hurt my foot really bad and are hard to kick. 250s are ok, and 200s are easy. (GGs and KTM). I just don't want to shell out the bucks for an e start KTM 2 stroke. I had a well set up 03 Yamaha YZ 250 with a 285 kit that I loved, except it was too hard to start. The kickstart lever was way too long and too hard to move through. I think GG has figured out the perfect ratio of internal kicker gears to lever location and length. I can kick my 250 GG far easier than any other 250 2t I've tried. It's just one more little thing that makes me love a Gasser.

I know, I am really picky! I used to be able to get on any old bike and go fast and far. Lately I do well to just finish with consistency. Mainly it's about fun, and I have the most fun when I get the least tired and make the fewest mistakes.

Almost forgot to mention, I took some Showa forks off of an 04 Honda CRF 250 X and adapted them to my GG. The stock WPs with XC valving were beating me to death in the rocks. My wrists, neck, back, and core were hammered in an hour with the stock forks. I need to send the WPs to a tuner that understands how to set them up for a 50 yr old who's had 29 surgeries, and for extreme terrain, and not charge me the cost of a used bike. I'd leave the Showas on the GG but I need to put them back on the Honda and sell it eventually.

Who's the man for WP setup on an older GG, who understands that I need them to be as plush as possible?

 

[GMP]

Jeff,

Do youself a favor and forget those old WPs. They will never be any more than just OK. Get yourself a set of the KYB SSS forks including triples from a late model YZ, and have them tuned for the rocks. They go on with minimal mods and the offsets work out perfect. Ed Ventura here did this and is very happy, and my friend recently did it to his new KTM, replacing the newer WPs. Both cases are for extreme rocky riding. Les at LTR suggested this to me a couple years ago. I was thinking new bike soon so I didn't do it. If I had I think I'd still be on the '07 and would have passed on the '12.