EC200 wont start

[Skele]

EC200 wont start - PROBLEM SOLVED

Just had a complete rebuild, top to bottom, all worn parts replaced.

Bike started 2nd kick and ran absolutely perfectly for ten minutes, then suddenly cut out while riding down a road in fourth gear, as if it ran out of fuel.

Here are the things i've checked/done so far:

-Checked for spark, its a bright blue fat one (even changed the plug as a precaution)
- Checked all ignition cables
- Cleaned carby (jets and all) and checked for blockages in fuel line
- Drained all old fuel (was four months old...) from fuel tank and replaced with new fuel
- has a brand new air filter, freshly oiled
- checked reed valves
- disconnected kill switch (has a brand new one) and kicked it over, no luck.
- plenty of compression (haven't checked with a gauge but you can feel it when you try to kick it...)

Feels like i've checked everything! It just wont start...

 

[wence]

Just had a complete rebuild, top to bottom, all worn parts replaced.

Bike started 2nd kick and ran absolutely perfectly for ten minutes, then suddenly cut out while riding down a road in fourth gear, as if it ran out of fuel.

Here are the things i've checked/done so far:

-Checked for spark, its a bright blue fat one (even changed the plug as a precaution)
- Checked all ignition cables
- Cleaned carby (jets and all) and checked for blockages in fuel line
- Drained all old fuel (was four months old...) from fuel tank and replaced with new fuel
- has a brand new air filter, freshly oiled
- checked reed valves
- disconnected kill switch (has a brand new one) and kicked it over, no luck.
- plenty of compression (haven't checked with a gauge but you can feel it when you try to kick it...)

Feels like i've checked everything! It just wont start...

Stupid question,
BUT, it is not the fuel cap blocked therefore not allowing vacuum for fuel???
Try releasing or undoing cap and see what happens.
Had similar occurances on a road racer.
Cheers Mark

 

[rpduc]

Flywheel key?

 

[nhrider]

Turn the gas on!

It sounds like you covered all the bases but then again I'm no expert.

Check the carb boot for air leak???

 

[jostby]

Flywheel key?

I 2nd this idea. Or loose stator and the timing slipped? All of this had to have been removed for the bottom end part of the rebuild. Some on this board have even had issues with the left side crank seal falling out after a poor installation.

Let us know what you find. Good luck.

 

[Skele]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Stupid question,
BUT, it is not the fuel cap blocked therefore not allowing vacuum for fuel???
Try releasing or undoing cap and see what happens.
Had similar occurances on a road racer.
Cheers Mark

I forgot to mention that i have checked for a blockage in the breather hose, tried starting it without the entire fuel cap even. Also tried pulling off the fuel hose and letting the fuel run through, no blockages there.

Turn the gas on!

It sounds like you covered all the bases but then again I'm no expert.

Check the carb boot for air leak???

Checked the boot for an air leak too.

I 2nd this idea. Or loose stator and the timing slipped? All of this had to have been removed for the bottom end part of the rebuild. Some on this board have even had issues with the left side crank seal falling out after a poor installation.

Let us know what you find. Good luck.

I had also pulled the side cover off to check the nut and it was tight. HOWEVER, i haven't tried pulling the flywheel off. Maybe the key was not reinserted after the rebuild? I think it was pretty wedged in it's slot though, i know i never took it out! I don't have a flywheel puller, that's why i haven't tried yanking it off yet...But i agree, it does sound like some sort of timing issue.


I also realize that it sounds strange that i was in 4th gear down a road TEN MINUTES after starting it for the first time since a rebuild (i.e. not breaking it in). Only parts replaced in the bike were seals, bearings, piston rings, all gaskets and about half the gearbox (HUGE damage in the gearbox was the reason for the rebuild). So i didn't see the need for a full break in process, however i was only revving to about half the maximum revs. I was taking it very easy.

I should probably also properly check the compression with a gauge. I REALLY hope i haven't got a piston seizure. I'll probably kill someone.

 

[gasser]

It seems unlikely that it would jump time even without the woodruff key as long as the nut is tight. Jamming the rear brake without pulling in the clutch thereby bringing the motor to a sudden stop could possibly cause the timing to move but I'd look for something simpler first. Is the plug wet after you've cranked it for awhile? Does it sound like it tries to start? If the answer is no and no then you've probably got a fuel problem. If you know you're getting fuel to the carb it might be good to double check the main jet to see if it's blocked.

 

[Skele]

It seems unlikely that it would jump time even without the woodruff key as long as the nut is tight. Jamming the rear brake without pulling in the clutch thereby bringing the motor to a sudden stop could possibly cause the timing to move but I'd look for something simpler first. Is the plug wet after you've cranked it for awhile? Does it sound like it tries to start? If the answer is no and no then you've probably got a fuel problem. If you know you're getting fuel to the carb it might be good to double check the main jet to see if it's blocked.

I've pulled the carb apart and checked all jets. But i haven't checked to see if the plug is wet after 10 or so kicks. I will tonight. I also haven't tried soaking the carb in carb cleaner.

In a similar post on another forum someone found that their spark plug was not getting wet. Someone suggested that they throw a bit of fuel in chamber and see if it fires up, which would show a fuel blockage. Is this a good idea? will that actually work?

The bike doesn't seem to try and start at all. Holding in the kill switch while kicking it over doesn't seem to change the number of times it turns over when i kick it either.

UPDATE:

Pulled the pipe off, no evidence of a seizure. Fuel sprays out the exhaust port if i kick it over numerous times, so there is obviously fuel getting to the chamber. If i kick the bike over a few times and then pull the plug out i find smoke in there so SOMETHING is getting ignited. Next check could possibly be for an air leak?

 

[GMP]

Go through your electrical again. You can see a spark, but that does not mean it will fire under compression. Start with the HV coil wire connections at the coil and cap. Check grounds as well. The potential timing issue is a good point too. Look for problems where you have been last.

 

[gasmonkey]

The old '3 things to make an engine go' rule applies.
You've got compression,--new top end.
You've got fuel,from observation re exhaust port.
Have you got spark?? with the plug fitted and wire on.GMP in above post describes it well.The HT lead if rubbing against metal or water hose will leak into them ,than fire the plug under compression.
Even with timing out,it maynot run but backfiring of some sort will occur if the above 3 areall there.

 

[gasgasman]

An engine needs four things to run.
1)Compression
2)Fuel
3)Ignition
4)Air

They just have to happen all at the correct time.

 

[Skele]

OK heres an update:

Took bike to the mechanic up the road and borrowed his compression tester - 150psi - all good.

I have checked over all of those wires you speak of, checked for loose grounds and faulty connections. It gives a nice blue fat spark when you pull the plug out. BUT you raise a good point GMP, there may not be a spark under compression. I will have to look into this and check over the wiring further (if thats even possible....)

How on earth can i check if there's spark under compression!? I have heard of this problem before.

I agree with gasmonkey, if the timing was out it would at least be making some sort of bang.

 

[nhrider]

An engine needs four things to run.
1)Compression
2)Fuel
3)Ignition
4)Air

They just have to happen all at the same time.

And the correct amount.

 

[Skele]

Engine is flooding, as if there is no spark. Yet when i pull the spark plug out, it gives a perfect one...

 

[Berkyboy]

You said that you have spark, compression and fuel so from that I would concentrate on the following.

First I would check that your carb slide is closing all of the way. Make sure that there is just under an 1/8th of an inch throttle cable slack at the throttle assembly on the handle bar.

If you can't adjust it there make sure the brass receiver at the carb is fully turned in and the lock nut is tightened. The key is to make sure the carb slide completly snaps shut when you let go of the throttle.

If it still dooesn't seem to close then check that the routing of the cable under the tank is not being restricted.

If your not sure that it is closing all of the way than you may need to remove the carb and physically check that the slide is closing all of the way when you let go of the throttle.

Secondly I would investigate how many turns your airscrew is out, is the choke circuit working and is the pilot jet loose or even missing.

Start with the air screw. Count how many turns to full in. It normally is only effective when it's adjusted from 1 to 3 full turns out. I personally like to see it somehwhere between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 turns out.

If it is out of the 1 to 3 turn range than that may be your problem if it was out of range I would start at 1 turn out and try starting it after replacing the spark plug. If that doesn't work go to 2 turns out. If that doesn't work move on to the next step.

Check that the choke plunger is not warped or disfigured. If it just doesn't look right or it is getting hung up you should be able to borrow one from a buddy that has a Keihn PWK carb and see if that makes a difference. If you can't borrow one than I would move on to the next step and come back to this step later as you may need to buy a new choke plunger assembly if the next step doesn't work.

Next double check that the pilot jet isn't loose or missing as this happens a lot when the jet vibrates loose on the trail and the bike won't start. It sounds like you already checked the pilot jet but I needed to state the obvious as it may be the key.

All of the things above: completely closed slide, air screw, choke circuit and pilot jet work together when starting the engine even when it has proper spark and fuel.

Good luck.

 

[rpduc]

I'll second the "not fully closed slide" theory. At the last race a friend of a friend had a CR250 that absolutely would not start. They had the carb off twice, new plugs, checked compression, no go.

Our minute was coming so we left him in the pits. He shows up about 40 secs. before we took off and says the throttle cable had jumped out of the seat inside the rubber boot and the slide wasn't fully closing. They never noticed it even after pulling the carb twice.

After they seated the cable properly so the slide would close the thing started and ran fine the rest of the day.

I'm not sure I understand WHY the slide has to fully close since I occasionally start mine with the throttle open after dumping it etc., but that was the problem in that guys case.

 

[Skele]

I was actually investigating the slide today, i did remove the cable during the service as i wanted to know what position the clip was on. And i had though that i might not have reinserted the cable correctly. However i didn't check to see whether it was fully closing or not.

I will check for slack and ill check out the slide tomorrow.

I ENSURE you the pilot and main jet are in correctly, i've checked these over at least 5 times.

None of these explanations explain WHY the bike SUDDENLY cut out and never started running again though. However, I'm pretty convinced i had a plugged jet or two... Maybe i created more problems while i was clearing these jets...

I'm taking the bike to my local gasgas dealer tomorrow, hes gonna lend me his flywheel puller so i can rule out the flywheel key theory. Hopefully get it running too! It's been a whole bloody week since this problem arose.

 

[rpduc]

None of these explanations explain WHY the bike SUDDENLY cut out and never started running again though.

That's why I first thought flywheel key. But like you say maybe you fixed the reason for the cutout by cleaning the jets, then on reassembly mucked up the cable??? So now it won't start but for a different reason than the cutout...

That CR I was talking about would not even pop, even bump starting behind a pickup.

 

[Skele]

That's why I first thought flywheel key. But like you say maybe you fixed the reason for the cutout by cleaning the jets, then on reassembly mucked up the cable??? So now it won't start but for a different reason than the cutout...

That CR I was talking about would not even pop, even bump starting behind a pickup.

Yeah i just checked the slide, it its definitely fully closing - I can hear it (and i saw and felt it too...) I have very minimal play in the cable, but that's the way i like it My bike wont roll start either... Not even a single fire. You're CR case has given me knew hope though, it confirmed for me that if your engine is flooding it wont roll start. The gasgas dealer will probably lend me a spare carb tomorrow to try out. He's looked after me pretty well...

I will check out that air screw but i haven't moved that since before the bike actually started.

UPDATE: air screw was out about 2 1/2 turns. Screwed it in to 1 1/2. Idle screw was screwed in pretty damn far too so i screwed that way out. Kicked it over heaps of times, still no go.

 

[Berkyboy]

Probably not even related to your problem but mostly good info for those following this discussion.

A common routine that riders use at Six Days with two stroke motorcycles. Remember they only have 60 seconds to start the engine and go 20 meters.

1) Turn fuel on.

2) Lean bike on side for a few moments until fuel flows out of over flow tubes and is replaced by fresh gas.

3) Choke on.

4) Gently kick motorcycle over a couple of times with your finger on the kill switch to lubricate cylinder and rings and build good compression.

5) Release the kill switch button and start using a "heavier" kick.

If motorcycle doesn't start under these conditions the routine is with the choke on go to full throttle and kick more agressively.

Good Luck at your local dealer.