gas gas won't idle? read this!

[ricardo cabeza]

I just picked up a de 200 and after 1st ride I was not happy with the way it ran! lets jst say the jetting was way off and it would not idle.
with the bike cold the choke was not effective. this tells me the pilot was to riich so I dropped from a stock 45 to a 35 and the bog at 1/4 throttle w/a slight load on the motor was gone and the choke actually acted like it should!(I ride at 1500' to 3000')
BUT it did not effect the idle, so out came the carb(boy was that fun)with the carb on the bench I put the slide back in and put a small flash light in one side and examined how much the idle screw raised the slide. lets just say that it did not affect the slide height untill the very last 1/2 turn and then it only raised the slide approx 1/2 of 1 mm. Now just to let you know it DOES take actual air passing through the carb to activate the idle circuit!
I believe the japanese guys at keihn are screwing with the spanish guys at gasgas by putting extra long springs behind the idle screw SO take out the spring and cut a couple of coils off and reinstall(yes this does raise the springs rate, you wll not be able to turn w/fingers)
TaDa it idles!!!!!!!!!! next week I will try a power-now, it made a huge diff. in my 99' ec 200 and yeah I know, you guys w/ 300's probly won't notice a difference but do you guys really need MORE low end?

 

[cdn280]

Cool, i thought about doing this myself as mine is almost coil bound just to get the idle to raise a bit.

 

[fasternat]

spring too long?

That's an interesting observation. Does anyone here have a hondamakawasuki with the pwk to compare spring length? If it's different we could get the shorter spring from the japanese bike dealer.
Nat

 

[jeffd]

I don't think this is a good way to go about "fixing" this carb. What you are doing is allowing the bike to pullover from the needle too soon. It will work for you on one day, but it makes the bike very sensitive to environmental changes. Because the slide is pulled up farther, the air screw will no longer have much effect - so you won't be able to fine tune the pilot circuit with the air screw.

I met Ron Black at RB-Designs face to face for the first time yesterday (I had him bore a carb for me)- he installs carb blades on the intake side (this is only one step that he takes to increase pilot circuit sensitivity - he does other things - some of them "super secret sauce"). He knows his stuff, his work is top notch (and his shop is immaculate).... You should talk to him before spending time or money elsewhere. www.rb-designs.com

jeff

 

[ricardo cabeza]

no worrys!

I rode sunday, started at 9 am 1500' elevation and temp was 66 f. rode to 3600' temp was at 58 and then rode back to 1500' at 1 pm with a temp of
81. Bike did NOT deviate from perfect! I would rather learn by test and re-test than take the word of some self proclaimed smart guy only to find out said smart guy is a 8th grade drop-out that has been monkey mechanicing with not as much ..............oh yeah, by the way I measured the taper on the needle(w/micrometer), measured the height at which the taper began and measured the amount of slide lilft and surmised the full diameter of the neddle was still in the main jet after the spring was cut and the slide was raised approx .5 mm! just remember air passing through the carb is required for the idle circuit to siphon fuel and feed the engine, making the piston going up and down via small internal combustions! perhaps you have heard of the internal cumbustion engine?

 

[jeffd]

Ricardo,
Apparently, you have taken offense. I am sorry. If you read my post, I am passing on what I understand on the topic and pointing you at someone who can help you become more knowledgable on the topic - I am not attacking you in any way - please don't counter-attack in a personal way because you don't like what I have to say...

jeff

p.s. I operate on this board under two different user names - the first is "jeffd" and the other is "webmaster". As "jeffd", I feel I can express my personal opinions and recommend certain vendors, etc. As "webmaster", I maintain and represent this website and bulletin board and maintain complete neutrality between all vendors & dealers, etc. As webmaster I would tell you that it is "okay to attack an idea and it is not okay to attack a person..."

 

[BIG TOOL]

Well said!

Thank You Ricardo!!!!!! It's a rare day that common sense prevails on this forum.

Again, well done Ricardo, keep doing what works for you!

 

[webmaster]

Big Tool,
Stating your opinion and having heated discussions are okay.... Crossing over the line into personal attacks is not permitted. Your post was edited to remove the content that is not in accordance with the gasgas riders club user's agreement.

Ricardo - I sent you a PM. And again, I am sorry for stepping on your toes.

jeff

 

[DaveJ]

Cool, i thought about doing this myself as mine is almost coil bound just to get the idle to raise a bit.

Same here. Half to three quarters of a turn left before it binds. I'm glad that I'm not the only one. I'm not going to cut mine though as my idle is just right.

 

[iancp5]

I would rather learn by test and re-test than take the word of some self proclaimed smart guy only to find out said smart guy is a 8th grade drop-out that has been monkey mechanicing with not as much ..............

That's a bit harsh for someone you don't know!
I wonder what people think about you?

 

[cdn280]

I don't think this is a good way to go about "fixing" this carb. What you are doing is allowing the bike to pullover from the needle too soon. It will work for you on one day, but it makes the bike very sensitive to environmental changes. Because the slide is pulled up farther, the air screw will no longer have much effect - so you won't be able to fine tune the pilot circuit with the air screw.
I met Ron Black at RB-Designs face to face for the first time yesterday (I had him bore a carb for me)- he installs carb blades on the intake side (this is only one step that he takes to increase pilot circuit sensitivity - he does other things - some of them "super secret sauce"). He knows his stuff, his work is top notch (and his shop is immaculate).... You should talk to him before spending time or money elsewhere. www.rb-designs.com
jeff

Seeing as this post hasn't died yet, the above statement still has me thinking. Ricardo has said that the needle is still in its closed part of the taper so you are really only adjusting the idle speed only the way its supposed to work by opening the slide slightly. So there is no spending involved unless you want to pay someone like RB.
I've got the tach working on mine and the best idle to prevent stalling on steep downhills and during long idling periods seems to be about 1900rpm. What are others finding. And although the main jet only marginally affects the zero to 1/8 throttle mixture, I recently went from a 178 to a 175 main and it idles a lot better and longer at 500-3000ft. I'm going to try the next leaner pilot as soon as I find out what I have in there again.
Mine is a 2006 EC300

 

[eff]

That's a bit harsh for someone you don't know!
I wonder what people think about you?

I think the username does make a suggestion. I think most are not up on their spanish here. Cabeza = head. I think you can figure out the rest.

 

[iancp5]

I think the username does make a suggestion. I think most are not up on their spanish here. Cabeza = head. I think you can figure out the rest.

Ah - The dawn breaks

 

[webmaster]

I will repeat - "It is okay to attack an idea, it is not okay to attack a person". Please let it die guys...

Peace,
Jeff

 

[jeffd]

Seeing as this post hasn't died yet, the above statement still has me thinking. Ricardo has said that the needle is still in its closed part of the taper so you are really only adjusting the idle speed only the way its supposed to work by opening the slide slightly. So there is no spending involved unless you want to pay someone like RB.
I've got the tach working on mine and the best idle to prevent stalling on steep downhills and during long idling periods seems to be about 1900rpm. What are others finding. And although the main jet only marginally affects the zero to 1/8 throttle mixture, I recently went from a 178 to a 175 main and it idles a lot better and longer at 500-3000ft. I'm going to try the next leaner pilot as soon as I find out what I have in there again.
Mine is a 2006 EC300

I know from experience that having it near coil bind on the idle screw that my air screw had very little effect. This makes sense to me - because an increased amount air and fuel is coming via the slide/needle that the relative contribution of the pilot circuit is now much less.

Going with LTR jetting (my bike was the bike used for creating the jetting kit) - the idle screw was further out and I could go a 1/4 turn on the air screw to adjust for cold temps in the morning, etc. There is a range of settings where this carb is designed to operate - I think that cutting the spring and going in further on the idle screw will make the idle circuit even less sensitive - you will lose the ability to do any fine tuning via the air screw.

The LTR jetting kit allows you to turn down the idle screw and you get better pilot circuit sensitivity (which this carb needs). In talking to Ron at RB-Designs - he takes it several steps further, modifying the carb itself to increase pilot circuit sensitivity.

If you go up 4500 feet in altitude from 1000 feet - and it starts to blubber off the bottom a little, don't you want to be able to just turn the air screw a little and have it purr like a kitten off the bottom? Seems to me that if you are cutting the spring and turning in the idle screw further you will be moving in the opposite direction. It may work fine - but I think you should be aware of what you are sacrificing along the way...

jeff

 

[Eric K]

Seeing as this post hasn't died yet, the above statement still has me thinking. Ricardo has said that the needle is still in its closed part of the taper so you are really only adjusting the idle speed only the way its supposed to work by opening the slide slightly. So there is no spending involved unless you want to pay someone like RB.
I've got the tach working on mine and the best idle to prevent stalling on steep downhills and during long idling periods seems to be about 1900rpm. What are others finding. And although the main jet only marginally affects the zero to 1/8 throttle mixture, I recently went from a 178 to a 175 main and it idles a lot better and longer at 500-3000ft. I'm going to try the next leaner pilot as soon as I find out what I have in there again.
Mine is a 2006 EC300

I used to run my '01 GasGas 300 with a stock needle and 35 or 38 pilot. It was pulling over on the main circuit. The idle speed screw was at coil bind. The idle and jetting was not consistent from day to day. Since going to LTR jetting, it ran much better for years.

My '06 EC300 idles smoothly at 1100 RPM from sea level to 6k ft. The idle speed screw is not jammed into coil bind. I have used LTR jetting and similar straight taper needles with very good results.

 

[Adrian]

What I'm reading in to this is that his slide is completely closed until the idle screw is almost at coil bind. If the carb pulls over too much at 3/4 turn in from FULLY CLOSED then the pilot ciruit would be next to worthless. I to agree with Mr. Head the #35 pilot and the coil bind problem is not a factor on my bike. I tried the ltr jet kit and it just didn't work with my riding style.

 

[iancp5]

What I'm reading in to this is that his slide is completely closed until the idle screw is almost at coil bind. If the carb pulls over too much at 3/4 turn in from FULLY CLOSED then the pilot ciruit would be next to worthless. I to agree with Mr. Head the #35 pilot and the coil bind problem is not a factor on my bike. I tried the ltr jet kit and it just didn't work with my riding style.

That was my experience too.
At least we know who to blame now - JeffD!!

 

[mjtursky]

I know this is a pretty old post but this applies, If someone desires to get more travel from the speed screw there is a better option than cutting the coils on the spring. The speed screw on the 600~700 Polaris snowmobiles (1999~2002) with PWKs had a longer screw w/longer spring. This allowed for more travel. The other plus was it had a larger knob which made adjusting easier with gloves.

 

[nknudsen]

I know this is a pretty old post but this applies, If someone desires to get more travel from the speed screw there is a better option than cutting the coils on the spring. The speed screw on the 600~700 Polaris snowmobiles (1999~2002) with PWKs had a longer screw w/longer spring. This allowed for more travel. The other plus was it had a larger knob which made adjusting easier with gloves.

Great tip if needed! Thanks