Hard starting - Timing change?

[mattmax]

I just replaced the the combination ignition, lighting coil in my 05 MC250 with a Moose(made by Electrosport) unit with 60w lighting.

I marked the stator plate with scribe marks to put it back the same, but it could have shifted some. I now have trouble starting the bike, hot or cold, I have to kick it very fast and it then runs and idles perfect. When I do a spark check, it is a good looking blue spark, although I have seen stronger.

I'm assuming that the problem is probably with the spark timing, although I did change silencers about the same time.

Can anyone tell me how to check/set timing or is my best bet to just turn the plate a hair at a time until it starts easily? Would I retard the spark for easier starting?

Matt

 

[GMP]

Matt,

I never saw one of these. Does it use the stock flywheel?

Check the orientation of the trigger coil relative to the trigger magnet strip on the OD of the flywheel, with the crank at a fixed position before TDC. Compare the two stators. Stator position on the cases means nothing if the trigger coil is mounted slightly different on the stator.

 

[mattmax]

coil

Matt,

I never saw one of these. Does it use the stock flywheel?

Check the orientation of the trigger coil relative to the trigger magnet strip on the OD of the flywheel, with the crank at a fixed position before TDC. Compare the two stators. Stator position on the cases means nothing if the trigger coil is mounted slightly different on the stator.

It uses stock flywheel and simply bolts onto the original stator plate in place of the old six poled ignition/lighting coil. It looks very similar, just a little heavier. The ignition coil side even ohms out exactly the same as stock. Nothing about the trigger coil changes.

I marked the plate in two places, but it looks like my engine was drilled and machined to accept two types of stators and my round stator plate has a crescent shape cut out of the side, allowing the plate to shift off center if not carefully installed. Most plates on other bikes are held in a perfect center and can only be rotated left or right. I wonder if this was done to cure a machining error made in manufacture.

I'm going to assume that I either have a weak spark unless kicked fast enough, or my timing is off. It makes sense to me that if I retard the spark, starting should be easier, so I'll try that a little at a time.

 

[mattmax]

only sparks at high speed

I guess this really belongs under "electrical".

I figured out that my problem is no spark unless I kick it over very fast. My Honda CR500 has the same issue, but it has to be kicked hard anyway and there is plenty of room for follow through.

The Gas Gas has that short lever that stops early with no room for a full kick.

I guess everything points to the new coil, unless I disturbed the trigger coil in some bad way. I guess I'll be swapping coils to check.

If I went to the 14 oz flywheel, will I have any more output than the 10 oz? Someone once suggested the magnets were bigger on the 14 oz.

 

[GMP]

I'm really not sure exactly what you have. Is it a complete stator with a rewound lighting coil? Trigger coil included? Post a link or photo.

If its a complete stator from a different mfg, perhaps there is a slight compatibility issue with the CDI. The CDI box is a microcontroller that requires power from another coil on the stator to run. Possibly this coil on your new stator has a lower output. Verify the timing is close between the stock and new stator, if it is then I would suspect a compatibility problem.

The weights you speak of have nothing to do with the stator, they are purely inertial. The larger 2K-3 ignition from the EC has more lighting output but I suspect the CDI coils are the same as the same CDIs are used.

 

[cdn280]

If you've been trying to start it for a while and its real flooded now, you know there is a plug in the crankcase you can pull to drain it right?
Good luck.

 

[mattmax]

aftermarket stator-fixed using old stator

It's simply the laminated iron circular object directly under the flywheel. I guess it's called the stator, but I thought the stator was the whole assembly, including the plate. It is wound on three of the six poles for lighting, and two for spark power to the CDI, just as the stock unit and it screws into the stock stator plate using stock trigger coil.

here's the unit

http://www.electrosport.com/shopping_ignition_lighting_coils/prod_ignltg_str_esl460.html

It ohms out exactly the same for the ignition side, and makes a good blue spark when kicked fast enough.

At the suggestion of Gofasters, I measured the diameter and found it to be about five thousands smaller.

I wasn't talking about adding weight to the flywheel, I was talking about the actual bigger 14oz flywheel the DE comes with. I've been told the MC250 has about 35w for lighting with the 10oz, and the DE has about 40w with the 14oz flywheel and same 2k-2 stator.

I called tech support for this unit today and was basically given a brush off. The phone answerer went away and came back and said I either had bad connections or my trigger coil clearence was off, even though it can't be changed. I've been an electronic tech for 20 years and rebuilding bikes for 30, and all my connections were soldered. It's typical for these support guys to blame the customer.

I then changed back to the original unit, and it was back to it's old self, starting with half a kick. Problem with unit, but I know the manufacturer probably won't make good. It fits other bikes too. Late nineties RM250's and 125's, 97-02 KTM 300's, and several other's. Maybe ebay is my best bet since the coil is good, it just won't work on my bike.

Oh, and I know about the drain in the crankcase. I've already used it once. Saved a bunch of time and fouled plugs. I ran my CR into a creek last May. Had to take out the reed block and turn the bike upside down. Fantasic feature as long as you don't lose the bolt on the trail. I'm carrying an extra.

 

[GMP]

Matt,

I thought the MC and DE flywheels were the same, only the EC being different. Learned something.

I've been a tech and also an engineer for years. I designed transformers for UPS systems for awhile. Thats not much difference in clearance. Perhaps the core laminations could be different. They probably designed it as a multi fit application, and as a result quality suffers. You could always get the stock Kokusan stator rewound.

 

[mattmax]

Matt,

I thought the MC and DE flywheels were the same, only the EC being different. Learned something.

I've been a tech and also an engineer for years. I designed transformers for UPS systems for awhile. Thats not much difference in clearance. Perhaps the core laminations could be different. They probably designed it as a multi fit application, and as a result quality suffers. You could always get the stock Kokusan stator rewound.

I actually thought about winding it myself before I bought the aftermarket, which was actually marketed by Moose. I guess you'd be the one to ask about that, having transformer experience. If I just extended the amount(length) of wire that's on the coils, would that just increase my voltage, and not my current? I assume what I need is more current, but how would I achieve this?

Actually, after looking at my Hebo light and taking the bulb out, I may be able to run the stock coil. The bulb is 25w for each filament, which won't be on at the same time, I have LED tail light and brake light, and I then have turn signals(mandatory in GA), which I don't know what type of power they draw. I don't know how I would change my blinkers to LED. I made the taillight myself from auto parts store stuff. I know most turn signal blinker units work because of the current heating a bi-metal switch. I've heard of units that work with LED's, but never seen one.

 

[GMP]

Matt,

You would need to go with a heavier guage wire and the same # of turns. Problem then becomes fit, and enough flux density. The limit is probably close to what the Electrospec unit is.

Check into some of the street bike accessory places for LED conversions. I know they have modules to make turn signals work with LEDS. It may require a fairly clean DC though.

What you could do is what I did on my '03. I have two ignitions, a 2K-2 and a 2K-3. I wired the system with an additional connector so that the stators can be quickly and eaisly swapped. For dual sport use you can use the 2K-3, even float the ground and do a full DC conversion. For more snap on the track or fast trails swap in the 2K-2.

 

[mattmax]

2k-3

where can I get a 2k-3 ignition at a decent price? Seems like I priced them before I bought the Electrosport(sold by moose and various other people), and the price was high. I paid $150 for the Moose(electrosport) and I'm trying to work something out with them know. They were supposed to call me back and never did.

 

[GMP]

Matt,

I'm currently looking into an '07. As I understand there are no DE bikes with 2K-2 ignitions coming, just 2K-3s. I already have a like new 2K-3 on the shelf. I would like a 2K-2 as well. Once I'm sure what I'm getting, I'd be willing to trade.

 

[mattmax]

stators

I don't quite understand what the disadvantage is of running the 2k-3 ignition. Does it need a bigger flywheel?

I actually think I can I can run everything off my 2k-2. At the auto parts store, I found some amber LED lights for side mount turn signals on cars and I picked up an electronic flasher all for $30. My Tail/brake are already LED. Total current draw is 29w with headlight at 13.8v, 25w at 12v(checked with power supply and multimeter).

My tail light, blinker, license plate unit I made strengthens the MX fender and comes off with three screws for dirt only rides.

I still have to power the speedo/computer and possible horn. I may be able to use an air or bulb unit. I have a relatively small sized 100,000uF,20v cap or may run a battery for clean DC and backup power.

You suggested floating the ground for clean DC. Is there a reason to float the ground as long as I use a good motor ground? Is there any reason to run the headlight on AC? I have a power wire from the factory up to the CDI area and I'd rather not disturb what I have with a ground wire.

Matt

 

[GMP]

Matt,

The 2K-3 is the EC ignition with a much larger flywheel.

Stock, there are two outputs on the 2K-3. Only one is used and referanced to ground, just like your 2K-2 with a single output. If you modify the stator slightly by removing the output coil's referance to ground, you can use the both outputs through an aftermarket rectifier/regulator and referance the 12VDC output to ground. Just like a simple linear DC power supply.

 

[mattmax]

2k-3 gr

Don't know how that slipped my mind. It would have occured to me when I was wiring it up. I could isolate the DC ground from the frame, but the AC grd would be easier.

I have no use for the 2k-3. That's why I've gone to all this trouble to keep my current flywheel. Electrosport says they'll refund my money on the stator.