Ironman sprockets - damaged my engine??

[stay_upright]

Please see the letter I have emailed to dirt tricks..

Sir/Madam,

I hope I am contacting the manufecturer/designer of the ironman sprockets. If not my apologies but could you reply to let me know this is the case.

I purchased a front ironman sprocket for my Gas Gas EC300 (2005) and when replacing the chain after about 1 year of light use with the sprocket fitted noticed that the front sprocket appeared loose. The sprocket could be rotated quite noticeably and also moved up and down approximately 1-1.5mm. This was not the case when the sprocket was fitted. Also it is possible to remove the fixing circlip and slide the sprocket forward onto the countershaft splines that do not normally carry any load and when positioned here there is very little or no movement up and down or rotationally. Inspection of the sprocket and countershaft splines show that there is only wear evident on the countershaft splines.

I had also purchased a second front ironman sprocket and tested this - the movement was the same rotationally and up and down.

I believe this sprocket has worn the countershaft on my bike which may be possible due to the hardened nature of the entire sprocket. I normally run renthall sprockets and have not had a problem in the last 3 years of using the bike, and there was no wear noticeable after the first owner had the bike either.

Have you had similar problems with other Gas Gas' bikes or other manufecturers enduro bikes?

I would urge you to investigate this issue as I am now facing an engine strip-down to replace the countershaft along with all the associated expense.

Myself and the Gas Gas Riders community forum await you reply.

Regards

 

[SpeedyManiac]

Weird. I've been running an ironman sprocket on the countershaft for years with no issues.

 

[Rick]

I'm not sure that this should have been posted here until you received your response from Dirt Tricks. Give Dirt Tricks a chance to investigate your problem. Did you contact the Euro importer? If your still not happy with the results, then take it to the next level.

From what I"ve seen here on this board, alot of guys use Dirt Tricks products and have been happy with their products.

Hmmmmm, not good, if you had such good luck with Renthall why did you change to Dirt Tricks?

I've used Tallon c/sprockets with excellent results! We all have your own taste, much like pre-mix oil!

 

[gasgasman]

Any "slop" between the sprocket and the splined shaft will accellerate wear.

On my 2001 GG, I had to replace the front counter shaft due to wear from mud etc.

There's a lot of force on that shaft.
I don't think it's a Dirt tricks issue.

 

[MattR]

My new countersprocket is loose on my shaft. My old sprocket had slop too. Both are Ironman sprockets. I'm not saying Ironman parts caused my wear or that their sprockets fit incorrectly. Sorry, I do not have an OE GasGas sprocket to compare with.

In my case, any wear could have been there from the previous owner, for who knows how long, and it could have been from dirt, mud, etc.. like gasgasman mentioned.

I agree with Rick that you should have not posted the complaint here until Dirt Tricks had adequate time respond to your inquiry. Any wear to your countershaft is suspect and could have been caused by a variety of reasons.

 

[sierrarider]

I run Ironman sprockets because I feel they are the most durable available. I have never heard of this happening. If the fit was loose when you put the sprocket on, I feel it would have been your responsibilty to verify a tight fit.
I would be upset if this happened to me also. However, I do not feel that a company making a good and durable product should be liable for your damage. The case hardened nature off the sprocket could possibly be harder than the countershaft. For example, I just purchased a Hammerhead Designs shift lever that is very stout. It is possible that if it hit a rock a certain way, I could potentially damage the gear selector shaft upon impact. It is not likely the lever would bend, thereby transferring damage to the bike.
I accept that risk when I chose such a stout part and hope I don't sustain damage. I certainly will check to see that there is no slop on my front sprocket. I have a number of rides on the new Ironman stuff and hope to not find slop like you are describing.
I wish you the best and thanks for the alert.

 

[Ud_luz]

I have found that as soon as you get any slop on the countershaft it will start wearing even more rapidly.

I've run Iron Man sprockets for quite a while and have had no issues. I believe what you're experiencing is probably normal wear. I've been sending batches of sprockets to this guy for treatment. If I were to replace a countershaft I would probably give it a try. I believe there's no question sprockets last longer doing this.

 

[GMP]

There is a certain amount of normal play when new. All of my three GGs ran Ironman CS but none have had any noticable shaft spline wear. What I do however is shim the sprocket for a tight fit when the circlip is installed. This will not limit axial play under load but it does help with some movement.

 

[PEB]

I have been securing the circlip with permatex blue which also seems to limit the amout the sprocket wobbles around.

 

[sierrarider]

I checked mine today and noticed more free play than I really like to see. It is just as loose as my kickstarter shaft. I guess I need to find a way to shim both of these so I don't have issues.

 

[cal_tony]

I have heard stories on the TT site re. Ironman sprockets but they all had to do with the design of the bolt hole area and the problem that excessive flex at the bolt area caused sprocket bolt failure. Now I don't want to jump on any bandwagon saying there is a problem with these sprockets relative to things other than longevity. There was a recent post on this topic on the TT site and a few users expressed problems with bolt failures. From what I have seen of the Ironman design I could see how a misaligned rear sprocket could cause bolt problems. I have not used these sprockets but by and large everything I have read about them is that they have quite a following. So my comment relative to Ironman is just about what I've read.

My reason for posting is more about about what PEB commented on re. Blue locktite. For many brands of motorcycles their list of fixes include RED locktiteing the front sprocket and letting it dry overnight just to avoid countershaft and or seal failure. They recommend some on the nut( for those brands using a nut) but to use more on the sprocket and the spline.

A loose fitting CS sprocket from any Mfg is a recipe for problems. Although new CS sprocket may fit tight enough on a new spline without locktite, it would not be tight enough on a used spline.

If you read the Red locktite spec sheets you can see that it is made specifically to cure the problem of too much clearance between a sprocket on a spline.

I would recommend to anyone reading this topic to examine their CS sprocket and if it has even the slightest give to it to get out the RED and fix it now.

Tony

 

[PEB]

I have been using blue gasket maker to keep the clip in place, a rubber safety wire.

 

[rpduc]

I would recommend to anyone reading this topic to examine their CS sprocket and if it has even the slightest give to it to get out the RED and fix it now.

Tony

I have Ironman sprockets and a sloppy front. I can't say if it was tighter when I mounted it, but it is sloppy now.

I question whether Red Loctite would hold up under in that application but it might be worth a try. My question would be how does one center the sprocket on the splines as the Red Loctite hardens to assure you don't end up with an eccentric mount job?

 

[stay_upright]

Recieved a (quick) reply

Hello, sorry to hear of this problem, however it is not the sprocket that has caused your problem. Our sprockets are hard, true, but they are still not as hard as your counter shaft. Counter shafts on all modern dirt bikes are made from very hard gear material which is stronger than our sprockets. (Its hardness is about 59-60Rc on the Rockwell scale). We have front sprockets on thousands of different bikes all over the world, some on the bikes of world class off-road racers for the last 9 years. With this long history of use, combined with our own testing, there is no additional or abnormal wear caused to any counter shaft (on any model bike) from our sprockets.
We have many of our front sprockets on Gas Gas bikes, including some very skilled pro riders who attended the ISDE in Greece. (among other events) The "c" clip which holds your front sprocket to the shaft should be snug at initial install. If it is not, it should be replaced. A loose or worn "c" clip can produce a sliding movement of the sprocket on the counter shaft, this will greatly accelerate the wear on both the counter shaft, and the sprocket. For this reason, the "c" clip design is not an ideal securing method for a front sprocket.
In addition to a loose sprocket situation, one other thing often noted about Gas Gas is they tend to develop a leaky counter shaft seal. Is your seal leaking, or has your seal been leaking in the past? This condition creates a bad situation as it will hold abrasive material like sand to the area around the leak. This grit will eventually work its way between the sprockets and splines. It is more likely that a loose sprocket is the cause of your issue however.
We are very sorry to hear of your problem, we certainly hate to hear about a fellow rider experiencing down time. I can assure you however, this was not the fault of the sprocket. I will be happy to send you a replacement front sprocket so you have a new ready to go when you finish the rebuild. Please send me your shipping address. If you have further questions please let me know. Thanks very much, Nate D. Dirt Tricks 775-267-6361
2559 Precision Dr #4
Minden, NV 89423
USA

 

[GMP]

I doubt that would hold up, there is tremendous torque at that point. That stuff is made for more static retention like studs, and sometimes bearings with a questionable fit.

Clean the end of the shaft and compare the splines where the sprocket sits to the splines outboard of the circlip if you suspect wear.

 

[stay_upright]

To answer a few questions:

I was posting really to give people a heads up on what I think/thought was an issue and to see if any other people have the same problem. Looks like a few do though who knows if it's related to running ironman sprockets.

I used to run renthals/talon but they wear quick so I figured spend a bit more on an ironman and it should last much much longer.


Some questions of my own:

Is it abnormal to wear a countershaft in 4 years? I would have expected it to last the lifetime of the bike.

Am I correct in thinking I have to split the cases to replace it?

 

[Rick]

Seems to me that four years not a very long time. I would think that one should concider the elements in which the bike is ridden in, mud, sandy, snow, ect, ect and how often is the bike clean prior to riding again.

The point about the seal leaking seems logical, dirt would collect due to the area being oily causing more wear than normal.

I check my c/shaft sprocket for movement this weekend and mine seems "normal"....but what is normal for a bike that is 10 years old? I did not notice any alarming rate of movement out of the sprocket.

On that note, I am due for a complete new drive system, I will replace the "c"clip, and will go with a OEM Tallon and Dirt Tricks rear sprocket. I agree with you about the aluminum rear sprockets do wear too fast.

Good Luck.

 

[dave948]

4 years is not a long time for a bike that gets 20 hours a year, 20 hours a week, well you get were I'm going.

Running a chain too tight will cause a lot of wear on the cs as well. Once it starts it just keeps getting worse, and fast.

 

[REVERUP]

Ive never had any issues over the last 5 seasons. I've ran these sprockets on 3 different Gas Gas bikes all with hours ranging in the thousands. Very few of them hours easy or in good weather conditions.

Any sprocket would have accelerated shaft wear if it isn't secure or tight on the splines. Also as mentioned chain adjustment will play a huge role in drive train wear and tear including the counter shaft. Ive taken the almost new talon off my bikes cause I know it wont hold up nearly as long as the iron man in the crappy conditions we ride in up here. It is just as tight fitting as the talon when mounted on a new counter shaft.

These are the best damn sprockets made in my opinion and I think it is silly to post a thread as this is titled.

Roscoe

 

[cal_tony]

For those that asked or questioned if the Red locktite works, let me say that I use it on all my bikes. Sometimes taking them off requires prying them off gentely with 2 screwdrivers. Sometimes I've used a puller. But I no longer worry if a sprocket is eating up my secondary shaft. On my DRZ there are standing recommendations on the TT site re. the RED locktite fix. That fix is recommend because on the DRZ if the CS sprocket is not locktited chances are the vibration from it's loosness will cause the seal to fail and eventually it could actually cause xmissioin failure.

My second thought re. sprocket wear and hub problems from misaligned rear wheels goes to the issue of how do most riders line up their rear wheel?
My GG has 5 alignment marks on the swingarm. These are spaced 1/4" apart and are of no practical value for alignment purposes. It has been my practice for many years to use a vernier caliper on the stop blocks. I align my rear wheel stop screws to less than 1/100 th of an inch. To further indicate my concern on this issue I then tighten everything down start the bike up and let it idle in neutral I look down the slow moving chain and the rear sprocket and make sure that the chain is running down the middle of the rear sprocket. If it's doing that it is aligned and what ever sprockets or chain you are using, they will last longer.

Finally, when the rear wheel is properly aligned, there is less tendency for the front sprocket to want to wander on the spline. It's easy to say that this or that product caused a problem or wore out too soon but in many cases a slightly misaligned rear wheel could cause all these problems.

Tony