Needles... what's the difference and where to buy?

[KTMAndy]

Hi guys me again...

My bike was starting to run a bit "iffy" I am no expert but I have some good solid friends around me who guide my hand.

After a bit of research I decided to drop my pilot jet from a 45 to a 40.

After fitting it. The bike started to splutter terribly at about 1/4 throttle and struggled to pull into the band.

I swapped the jet back to the 45. Put the carb back on. Bike was running like a 3 legged dog.

I called for back up. Cleaned the carb put the standard jets in. She still ran like a Bitch.

So I moved on to the stator. It was fried. 5 jet Black loose coils one had split completely.

Ordered a new stator fitted that. Bike still ran like a 3 legged dog. Aaaarrrg

Took the carb apart again. Checked the float hight.... Then, at 11pm my buddy checked the needle. It was in firmly. Very firmly.

The top adjuster had bent and was wedged against the clip holding it in. Appx 5 10mm too high!!

No wonder it was over fuelling like a pig.

So after further research and a lot of reading on here. I find there are so many different needs out there? I believe mine is an n1ef but what is the difference?

Am I best off sticking to the standard needle on clip 3 and adjusting the jet according to the weather?

Any suggestions on the best needle for 48' running a 38 idle a 178 main sportsman/ novice rider on a gas gas ec 250

Also where do you buy them from? (I'm in the uk)

 

[mjtursky]

Try "Allen's Performance" in the UK. They should be able to help you with Keihin PWK parts and tuning.

 

[Diggs345]

It's a n3cj Andy , don't call Allen's performance and ask for that as they will tell you it's only 3 letters , that's what I was told

 

[sevenfourate]

It's a n3cj Andy , don't call Allen's performance and ask for that as they will tell you it's only 3 letters , that's what I was told

Or just dont call them at all......

Is it just me, or unless you have an exact hour, day, month and year of bike manufacture, your National Insurance number, along with your inner thigh measurement and your wifes breast size: are the most unhelpful people on this Earth ?

I understand they dont want to send the wrong part (And this seems to be what it all revelves around) but they are the 'experts' after-all !

Im the most impatient human being on this Earth, but the last time i ordered some Kehein jets for a WR250 i ordered from the US rather than than 'them'.

This chap is EXTREMELY helpful to, and post is just a couple of days to the UK:

http://www.frankmxparts.com/

 

[nickp]

I like smooth power delivery NEDF Suzuki needle part no (13383-37FHO) I think, 42pj, 172mj try that see what you think. Get needle from KAIS .Hope this helps.

 

[KTMAndy]

Cheers guys lots of helpful suggestions. I've been checking the net and online stores... your right about them being hard to find.

I think I'm now looking for 1 step up from the standard n1ef and going for an n1eg which is off an 1999 rm 250 or an n3wk as it's meant to smooth out the curve. And let the 250 tick over easier.

I just need to find one now

 

[Jakobi]

Ok Andy,

Before you run off buying a heap of needles, lets discuss where you were at with the N1EF. How did the bike run? Did you find it a bit fluffy off the bottom with a hard hit in the upper mid rpm? Pretty thirsty on fuel? Thats generally whats experienced with the N1Ex/NOZx needles. They have a short straight section and a steep first taper before leaning out. What clip position was it on when it ran well?

The F diameter needle will be good for a 250 with an AS1 carb (round screw cap), probably with a 45 pilot too, but it'll take some testing to get it right.

Alternate needle wise, avoid any of the threads/suggestions to run a W/J diameter needle (last letter of needle code). They are too lean for that particular carb and are focussed on the newer AS2. The needle profiles are what you want. If you were to buy a couple I'd suggest visiting your local ktm dealer/yamaha dealer and ordering a N3EG/N3C. KTM Part numbers - N3EG P/N: 54731134000 .......... N3CF P/N: 54731034500

For the NEDx/NECx I'd suggest the same. Either F or G diameters (take your own pick) I like to try different diameters to get a feel for what works best. Source them from the local Suzuki dealer. 13383-37FH0 NEEDLE,JET(NEDF) or 13383-37FA0 NEEDLE,JET(NECF).

Both sell bikes world wide, so should have no issues chasing up OEM parts for either. The other option is to chase around for a JD Blue as they work really well in that vintage bike and capacity engine. If you're shit out of luck, I'm sure many of us have the stock N1EF/N1EG needles laying around and would be more than willing to give them away for nothing.

 

[KTMAndy]

Brilliant write up Jakobi talk about knowing your stuff. I'm learning all the time. Love it. Thanks buddy.

I already have an n1ef on order but having spoken to a friend. He wasn't as articulate as you. But had a similar review of the needle. So now I'm looking for a n1eg. But I'll also check those ktm oem part numbers and update the site with my findings.

 

[KTMAndy]

From gear4moto I've ordered an n1eg and n3cf and an n3eg. I also have a full set of idle jets and main jets from 155 upto 178.

Looking forward to this.

 

[KTMAndy]

Ok Andy,

Before you run off buying a heap of needles, lets discuss where you were at with the N1EF. How did the bike run? Did you find it a bit fluffy off the bottom with a hard hit in the upper mid rpm?

Pretty good description. I road my friends 300 for the first time a month ago . There really is no replacement for displacement. But it was so bloody smooth. Now I've been riding the gasser a little over a year. It's always been a bit flat then full on. Almost like an on off switch. If I can smooth that off it would really be a bonus.

 

[Jakobi]

It sounds like you'll want to get a hold of the Suzuki Needles (NEDx/NEDx).

The N1EG you've ordered will be barely any different to an N1EF. The straight section is so short that the diameter is only really going to effect the idle and not much more. Its actually so short that many people completely by pass it simply by turning the idle screw in. This puts it on the first taper and leads to inconsistant idling and limited effect of the air screw.

The N3xx needles you've ordered will be a jump in the right direction of improved fuelling, but I don't think they'll be what you are looking for. They have a nice smooth pull off idle, but where they change taper aligns with where the bike comes on the pipe. Basically you'll get a strong smooth torquey pull off idle, but as it will have a rather abrupt mid range transition. Good for an aggressive rider, or a lugger, as long as you decide to either stay up in the revs, or down low. If you try to roll smoothly through the rev range it'll be hard to control and wear you out.

The Suzuki is a 3 taper and provides similar pull off the bottom, adds a bit more fuel through the mid to smooth the transition, and then pulls a nice over rev up top.

But your bike is still a 250 and will always have more hit than a 300. Its just the nature of the beast. They both make the same power up top, and the 300 makes more off the bottom, so naturally the ramp up is going to be more aggressive on the 250.

 

[Diggs345]

Brilliant write up Jakobi talk about knowing your stuff. I'm learning all the time. Love it. Thanks buddy.

I already have an n1ef on order but having spoken to a friend. He wasn't as articulate as you. But had a similar review of the needle. So now I'm looking for a n1eg. But I'll also check those ktm oem part numbers and update the site with my findings.

I'm a man of few words and cut streight to the shit lol

 

[KTMAndy]

Lol I'd best order a suzuki needle =)

 

[KTMAndy]

After a trip to see Chris *Digs* I put a c3k (that would be the CEK thanks Chris!) needle in. Bike was running brilliantly smoothest I've ever known it. Quite surprising that a needle could make that much difference compared jetting mapping switches or anything I've done.

Then my new stator fell out of its mounting and ground into the fly wheel meaning I had a good hours pushing to get home!

All back together again. Wiring fixed on the stator and bolts in with thread lock. Too dark tonight but can't wait to try it again tomorrow =)

 

[Diggs345]

After a trip to see Chris *Digs* I put a c3k needle in. Bike was running brilliantly smoothest I've ever known it. Quite surprising that a needle could make that much difference compared jetting mapping switches or anything I've done.

Then my new stator fell out of its mounting and ground into the fly wheel meaning I had a good hours pushing to get home!

All back together again. Wiring fixed on the stator and bolts in with thread lock. Too dark tonight but can't wait to try it again tomorrow =)

That will be a CEK needle lol