New Guy - GasGas or KTM200

[sneaky98gt]

Hey all! I'm new here, first post actually, and wanted some opinions / pointers.

First off, I'll apologize in advance for being long winded. I'll do my best to keep it short and sweet.

So, background. I've been riding the snot out of a CRF230F for a couple years now, and have progressed to a point where it's starting to hold me back some. I ride almost exclusively tight, snotty, difficult singletrack. The low seat height, E-start, and mellow power is great for that, but I'm to the point that a proper enduro suspension and engine will help me out a lot.

REQUIRING a low seat height or E-start at a minimum (preferably both) and no heavier than my 250 pound CRF230 narrows the list down quite a bit. Personal preference of not wanting a water-cooled 4-stroke narrows it down even more. Not wanting to spend $5000+ on a toy pretty well narrows it down to only a few options.

I had my eyes set on an '05-'07 KTM 200 XC/XC-W. Plenty of power for my riding, low seat height, very light and nimble, decent woods suspension.
They don't have E-start, but it's fairly easy to retrofit on. However, after reading a lot about how unreliable the KTM e-start is, I started having doubts. I think it'd still be a great choice other than that.

Enter GasGas. From my understanding (correct me if wrong), the 2011 and older GasGas's (GasGasii? LoL!) have smaller frames and shorter seat heights. Win.

And then, 2011 onwards 250s/300s at least have the option of an E-start. Double win.

So, if I'm right on all this, a 2011 EC250/300 could be a sweet spot with a lower seat height AND e-start. SUPER WINNING!

All that I am reading about how well the GG turns, and how nice the engine is, how good a starting point the suspension is, and how DROP DEAD SEXY it is, is all icing on the cake. Plus, it looks like I shouldn't have any issue finding one for <$5000.

I don't like the fact that it doesn't appear to be an improvement in weight over my 230, versus the KTM 200 that's a good 20-25 pounds in real world weight lighter. That's significant when you're dragging your bike over a rock. Though that said, I've lived with 250 pounds on my 230 thus far, so I can probably live with a 250 pound GasGas.

Can someone confirm what I'm thinking here about the seat height and e-start? Are the e-starts on these bikes reliable and fairly hassle-free?

Any other advice / tips / words of wisdom here? Any other GG riders come from a smaller bike like a CRF/TTR 230 that can build up or shoot down my dreams that these bikes are the ultimate upgrade without a 4' tall seat?

Thanks in advance!

 

[john r b]

Location may help.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Location may help.

My bad.

Mid-Atlantic US. Almost entirely mountains of TN, NC, WV.

The stuff we ride, we usually average 8-9 mph moving speed. Very little / no fast stuff. A riding buddy of mine normally runs his Strava app when we ride, and I don't think the max speed has ever been over 30-35 mph.

And about me: 5' 10". 27 years young, decently in-shape 190 pounds. I tend to ride more towards the conservative end of the spectrum, but I know how to crack the whip when it's needed.

 

[Zman]

My friend went from a ttr230 to a slightly lowered GG and it works very well for him. He does not have the magic button start so there are times when starting is a little tricky. You can lower the suspension with different linkage "dog bones" for $50 used. I have a few pairs of them hanging around. Even with the minor changes to geometry from dropping the fork tubes and link bars it will handle 10x better than your current biike.

 

[rvangeel]

I am 5’7”. I have lowered my 2005 EC250 1.5” in the front and rear. It is great when it gets technical and you need to touch the ground. I do hit a bit more things here and there because of the ground clearance, but it isn’t too bad. When riding along at speed I don’t notice the weight of the GG at all. Regarding dead lifting it over obstacles, I don’t know if 230lbs vs 250lbs would be that much different. Either way you are going to blow a nut out! I just tend to push it back down the obstacle and try again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[gasser]

My observation having owned 200cc gassers (99&02) and ridden with a lot of 200ktms is the gasser (if stock) will lug out better but have less power below half throttle. Part of that I suspect is because the ktm runs a smaller carb. Most gasser 200s you will find have a 38mm carb - changing to a 36mm lectron should really wake it up on the bottom. Doing a squish mod on the cylinder head also gives a noticeable increase in power and gas mileage for under $90. One last thing to consider is a 250 gasser. They are easier to find and have way more bottom end power than the 200 gasser or ktm. As for electric start GasGas started putting it on bikes in 2010 but the 200 and 250 are so easy to crank over that it isn't necessary. Ktms seem to be much harder to crank for some reason.

 

[sneaky98gt]

My friend went from a ttr230 to a slightly lowered GG and it works very well for him. He does not have the magic button start so there are times when starting is a little tricky. You can lower the suspension with different linkage "dog bones" for $50 used. I have a few pairs of them hanging around. Even with the minor changes to geometry from dropping the fork tubes and link bars it will handle 10x better than your current biike.

That's good to hear. If he only had to lower it a bit, that makes me feel more confident that it'll work for me. I ride my 230 about as high as I can (forks all the way down in the tubes, and shock preload as high as I can get it for the sag to be roughly correct), and I wouldn't have any problem with something being even a little higher than that.

Honestly, if the e-start works, that takes away at least 75% of my concerns about a taller seat height.

I am 5?7?. I have lowered my 2005 EC250 1.5? in the front and rear. It is great when it gets technical and you need to touch the ground. I do hit a bit more things here and there because of the ground clearance, but it isn?t too bad. When riding along at speed I don?t notice the weight of the GG at all. Regarding dead lifting it over obstacles, I don?t know if 230lbs vs 250lbs would be that much different. Either way you are going to blow a nut out! I just tend to push it back down the obstacle and try again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll tend to re-start also if I don't make something. But when you make it 95% of the way, and the only thing left is to get your back tire up something, and all you've got to do is swing that back end up and over, I'll grab it and pull. And in those cases, I've done it enough on my 230 and XR400 to tell you that 20 pounds is a HUGE difference.

But, I've lived with it on my 230 for quite a while now. Don't imagine I'll be disappointed if a GG is the same way. Just as long as it's not worse.

My observation having owned 200cc gassers (99&02) and ridden with a lot of 200ktms is the gasser (if stock) will lug out better but have less power below half throttle. Part of that I suspect is because the ktm runs a smaller carb. Most gasser 200s you will find have a 38mm carb - changing to a 36mm lectron should really wake it up on the bottom. Doing a squish mod on the cylinder head also gives a noticeable increase in power and gas mileage for under $90. One last thing to consider is a 250 gasser. They are easier to find and have way more bottom end power than the 200 gasser or ktm. As for electric start GasGas started putting it on bikes in 2010 but the 200 and 250 are so easy to crank over that it isn't necessary. Ktms seem to be much harder to crank for some reason.

Good info.

Good thing I'm actively looking at a 250!

 

[(F5)]

I rode a KTM 200 of about mid 2000s. I quite liked it. But I wouldn't have traded it for my 02 GG200. Owner came away seriously impressed with the suspension.

Real easy to start a 200. Heck my 300 is pretty easy except the occasional stuck on side of hill. But that's hardly a common occurrence.

 

[hadfield4wd]

At 5’10” seat height shouldn’t be a problem. You don’t need to “flat foot” on both sides. When my son first started on a dirt bike he was 5’4 on a full size RM125.

 

[RBrider]

I'm the same height & weight as you, but 45 yrs older. OTOH, I've got about 45 more yrs of experience.

I have a plated '06 KTM EXC 450 & like it a lot, especially the reliable E start. But finally decided I needed a light weight , good handling woods bike. I found a '01 GG XC 200 and love that bike. IMO, it does everything that I want it to do well. I ride it mainly in WNC, but have done weekend rides in Kentucky, Michigan & Florida. It doesn't seem to care if it's hilly like WNC or Ky or flat & swampy, it just does a great job.

I still use the 450 as a dual sport ride.

No put down of your Honda intended, but a well tuned, older, 200 or 250 GG will out perform it in just about in way you could think of.

Sure, the E start is a bonus, but kick starting a well tuned GG is not a problem.

RB

 

[pscook]

For sale 2015 GasGas XC250
Less than 100 hrs.
Great condition.
$5,000 obo.
Expertly maintained.
Included:
Smart Carb, Rekluse manual clutch, Magura clutch conversion, Obie Link Guard, SuperSprox sprockets, Unabiker radiator guards, Shortened FMF Q Stealth. Extra graphics set. TM Design chain guides, SCAR foot pegs.
4hrs on new top end and serviced rear shock. Suspension revalved-190lb rider.
Title in hand.
Shipping can be arranged-buyer pays shipping.

http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23088

^ This bike right here ^ Exactly what you want (need? ).

I have ridden an older KTM 200, and it was peaky and twitchy compared to my (dearly departed) 2011 EC300. Comparing the CRF230F to either the KTM 200 or a GG250/300 is comparing apples to elephants.

The 2011 GG chassis was allegedly the Premiere" configuration, but the earlier versions don't feel that much different (to me). My 2001 300 was pretty similar to my 2011 300, except the engine had different characteristics (E start on the 2011 and flywheel as well as carb and pipe were different between the two).

Riding my new-to-me Husqvarna WR125 (with the 165 kit) feels so similar to the 2011 GG, that I would say that yes, the pre-2012 GG250/300 chassis is similar to a 125 in ergonomics, and it's pretty similar to the early KTM 200. So regardless as far as sizing, there is nothing really between them.

But buy the 2015 250 posted above. You will NOT go wrong or have buyer's remorse.

 

[SS109]

Man, I'm only 5'8" and never felt my '05 250 was too tall or heavy. I ride a lot of flowy trails but also some hike-a-bike stuff and never noticed the weight being a problem. Of course, I did come off a KDX200, and those are just as heavy, but it felt much heavier than the Gasser even when dead lifting it. I assume that has to do with how the weight is carried much lower on the GG than the top heavy KDX. Having e-start on a 2T is nice but it's not nearly the necessity as with a 4T.

YMMV and IMO!

 

[sneaky98gt]

Thanks for the help guys. This is exactly what I was hoping for.

One question left unanswered: how's the reliability of the e-start? I've seen a few complaints in old threads about some of the earlier e-start models, but it looked like something that could be fixed with some shimming or something. I haven't seen anything like the complaints about KTM e-starts, so that's definitely a good thing.

Real easy to start a 200. Heck my 300 is pretty easy except the occasional stuck on side of hill. But that's hardly a common occurrence.

You're right. It's not that common, and usually not that hard. But when you're stalled out on a steep, off camber hill (downhill to your left, uphill to your right), and you can't reach your left foot to the ground, and even if you could, you can't kick it with your right foot since the ground gets in the way....

E-start is a LIFESAVER in a situation like that.

At 5?10? seat height shouldn?t be a problem. You don?t need to ?flat foot? on both sides. When my son first started on a dirt bike he was 5?4 on a full size RM125.

Agreed, and being able to flat foot it isn't a requirement. But, being able reach the ground with some part of your foot with at least some amount of strength, without having to move your body so far that you lose your balance, is certainly helpful. Like if I'm on a steep, technical hill climb, and desperately trying to keep momentum, being able to throw a quick "dab" out to help make a course correction can help a lot. Versus on a bigger bike, I could still probably make that "dab" happen, but I'd have to shift my body weight so much that I'd almost certainly lose my balance and fall.

I'm the same height & weight as you, but 45 yrs older. OTOH, I've got about 45 more yrs of experience.

I have a plated '06 KTM EXC 450 & like it a lot, especially the reliable E start. But finally decided I needed a light weight , good handling woods bike. I found a '01 GG XC 200 and love that bike. IMO, it does everything that I want it to do well. I ride it mainly in WNC, but have done weekend rides in Kentucky, Michigan & Florida. It doesn't seem to care if it's hilly like WNC or Ky or flat & swampy, it just does a great job.

I still use the 450 as a dual sport ride.

No put down of your Honda intended, but a well tuned, older, 200 or 250 GG will out perform it in just about in way you could think of.

Sure, the E start is a bonus, but kick starting a well tuned GG is not a problem.

RB

If you find yourself up here and looking for a riding partner, let me know. Most of my time is spent in NC (Brown, Brushy Mountain).

And no need to worry about putting down the Honda! Haha. Because of the low seat height, E-start, very mellow power, and overall small size, I don't think there's a better bike on the planet for someone to learn how to ride offroad on. With just a tiny bit of investment into the suspension, it really is an excellent entry level bike.

And then, after learning the basics, it's still a great bike to really start to learn more advanced skills on. Because it's so underpowered, and because even a fully reworked suspension is still only 3/4 the size of a proper suspension, you're practically forced to become very proficient with the clutch, and carry more momentum into corners / hills, and be smarter when it comes to picking lines. In the end, I 100% believe that spending a couple years on this bike has made me a MUCH better rider than I would be if I would have started out on some sort of full size, 50 horsepower enduro bike.

But, all of that said, I ABSOLUTELY recognize that it has it's limitations. I used to be one of those guys that said it could do anything that any other bike out there could do. Then, I raced it a few times, including in an extreme enduro, and I realized that no matter how easy it might be to ride, it's not capable of doing the things a proper enduro bike can do.

So that's why I'm here, looking for something to replace it. Something to address it's deficiencies, without giving up too many of the things that make it an extremely easy bike to ride.

http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23088

^ This bike right here ^ Exactly what you want (need? ).

I have ridden an older KTM 200, and it was peaky and twitchy compared to my (dearly departed) 2011 EC300. Comparing the CRF230F to either the KTM 200 or a GG250/300 is comparing apples to elephants.

The 2011 GG chassis was allegedly the Premiere" configuration, but the earlier versions don't feel that much different (to me). My 2001 300 was pretty similar to my 2011 300, except the engine had different characteristics (E start on the 2011 and flywheel as well as carb and pipe were different between the two).

Riding my new-to-me Husqvarna WR125 (with the 165 kit) feels so similar to the 2011 GG, that I would say that yes, the pre-2012 GG250/300 chassis is similar to a 125 in ergonomics, and it's pretty similar to the early KTM 200. So regardless as far as sizing, there is nothing really between them.

But buy the 2015 250 posted above. You will NOT go wrong or have buyer's remorse.

That's good to hear confirmation that pre-2012 GGs are at least similar in size to the small-frame KTM 200s. While I haven't ever ridden one of those KTMs, I have sat on them a few times, and it's definitely a size that I think would work well for me in the woods.

I saw that bike, and I'm keeping it in the back of my mind. But, I'm also actively talking with a member about another one that's posted for sale. Will keep y'all updated on what pans out.

 

[Jim_C]

I really don't see why the e-start is a factor in your decision. The GasGas or two stroke will light off pretty easy and the situation of stuck on a hill is rare in comparison to the extra weight of an e-start.

The Gas Gas motor is great for enduro riding and the jetting is not as finicky as the KTM's.

 

[barossi73]

Compared to kicking a hot 4t,a 2t is a walk in the park.Also bumpstarts easier.In very awkward spot you can hop off and roll the kicker with your left foot.Often a halfkick is all you need if youre wedged in deep.Id say the button is very useful on a 4t,but for the most part unnecessary weight/complexity on a 2t (except for a second or twos time saving restarting from a stall/drop in a race situation)

 

[sneaky98gt]

Man, I'm only 5'8" and never felt my '05 250 was too tall or heavy. I ride a lot of flowy trails but also some hike-a-bike stuff and never noticed the weight being a problem. Of course, I did come off a KDX200, and those are just as heavy, but it felt much heavier than the Gasser even when dead lifting it. I assume that has to do with how the weight is carried much lower on the GG than the top heavy KDX. Having e-start on a 2T is nice but it's not nearly the necessity as with a 4T.

YMMV and IMO!

I didn't mention it earlier, but a KDX was also in the running alongside the KTM200 for what I was considering.

A good riding buddy of mine has a KDX, and it's definitely a little tractor. I've ridden it some, and overall liked it a lot. My biggest complaint was exactly what you just mentioned: even though it actually isn't any heavier than my 230, it felt as heavy while riding it as my XR4 does. It definitely didn't lend its hand to flicking around on a tight trail.

So it's good to hear that the GG is better in that aspect, even if the actual weight is comparable.

I really don't see why the e-start is a factor in your decision. The GasGas or two stroke will light off pretty easy and the situation of stuck on a hill is rare in comparison to the extra weight of an e-start.

The Gas Gas motor is great for enduro riding and the jetting is not as finicky as the KTM's.

It's not about how much harder or easier a 2T is to get started. It's about riding terrain difficult enough that makes it impossible to kick ANY bike if you get stuck on it.

I really need to post up my video from just last weekend that PERFECTLY illustrates why I want the button. When you're 99 yards up a 100 yard extremely steep and technical hill climb, with the bike stalled and turned sideways, and you on the uphill side trying to drag it the last 3 feet up. THAT is when the button is the difference between 10 more easy seconds and being up the hill, or having to go back down to try again, which may take 1 or 5 or 10 more tries to make.

You're completely right that 99%+ of the time, it doesn't make a difference. And me being fortunate enough to be healthy, kicking it over is no problem. But for that <1% of the time that it's just not possible, it potentially makes a HUGE difference.

 

[RBrider]

Thanks for the help guys. This is exactly what I was hoping for.












If you find yourself up here and looking for a riding partner, let me know. Most of my time is spent in NC (Brown, Brushy Mountain).

And no need to worry about putting down the Honda! Haha. Because of the low seat height, E-start, very mellow power, and overall small size, I don't think there's a better bike on the planet for someone to learn how to ride offroad on. With just a tiny bit of investment into the suspension, it really is an excellent entry level bike.

And then, after learning the basics, it's still a great bike to really start to learn more advanced skills on. Because it's so underpowered, and because even a fully reworked suspension is still only 3/4 the size of a proper suspension, you're practically forced to become very proficient with the clutch, and carry more momentum into corners / hills, and be smarter when it comes to picking lines. In the end, I 100% believe that spending a couple years on this bike has made me a MUCH better rider than I would be if I would have started out on some sort of full size, 50 horsepower enduro bike.

But, all of that said, I ABSOLUTELY recognize that it has it's limitations. I used to be one of those guys that said it could do anything that any other bike out there could do. Then, I raced it a few times, including in an extreme enduro, and I realized that no matter how easy it might be to ride, it's not capable of doing the things a proper enduro bike can do.

So that's why I'm here, looking for something to replace it. Something to address it's deficiencies, without giving up too many of the things that make it an extremely easy bike to ride.



Will keep y'all updated on what pans out.

I haven't ridden Brushy or Brown's yet, but would like to. We try to spend the summers in WNC, so you might be hearing from me. Maybe I'll bring along a couple other old guys that I ride with up in that area. My grandson, who's closer to your age, visits from out of state , he & I ride together too. He's rides my EXC 450 like it's 125 M/X'er.

RB

 

[Jim Cook]

I haven't ridden Brushy or Brown's yet, but would like to. We try to spend the summers in WNC, so you might be hearing from me. Maybe I'll bring along a couple other old guys that I ride with up in that area. My grandson, who's closer to your age, visits from out of state , he & I ride together too. He's rides my EXC 450 like it's 125 M/X'er.

RB

RB,
While I haven't ridden everywhere, I have been around quite a bit.
To me, Brushy Mtn is the best place to ride east of the Mississippi River. I've made the 800 mile trip from south Arkansas to Brushy several times, and have never regretted the trip. It's got everything from wide open fire roads to gnarly mountain single track.
One note, though: when it's wet, those red clay hills are super slick on the fire roads, especially the downhills.

Do yourself a favor and check out Brush as soon as you get a chance.
http://bmmspark.com/

Good Riding!
Jim

.

 

[Jim Cook]

Thanks for the help guys. This is exactly what I was hoping for.

One question left unanswered: how's the reliability of the e-start? I've seen a few complaints in old threads about some of the earlier e-start models, but it looked like something that could be fixed with some shimming or something. I haven't seen anything like the complaints about KTM e-starts, so that's definitely a good thing.

-snip-

You're right. It's not that common, and usually not that hard. But when you're stalled out on a steep, off camber hill (downhill to your left, uphill to your right), and you can't reach your left foot to the ground, and even if you could, you can't kick it with your right foot since the ground gets in the way....

E-start is a LIFESAVER in a situation like that.

-snip-

Agreed, and being able to flat foot it isn't a requirement. But, being able reach the ground with some part of your foot with at least some amount of strength, without having to move your body so far that you lose your balance, is certainly helpful. Like if I'm on a steep, technical hill climb, and desperately trying to keep momentum, being able to throw a quick "dab" out to help make a course correction can help a lot. Versus on a bigger bike, I could still probably make that "dab" happen, but I'd have to shift my body weight so much that I'd almost certainly lose my balance and fall.

-snip-

If you find yourself up here and looking for a riding partner, let me know. Most of my time is spent in NC (Brown, Brushy Mountain).


So that's why I'm here, looking for something to replace it. Something to address it's deficiencies, without giving up too many of the things that make it an extremely easy bike to ride.

-snip-

That's good to hear confirmation that pre-2012 GGs are at least similar in size to the small-frame KTM 200s. While I haven't ever ridden one of those KTMs, I have sat on them a few times, and it's definitely a size that I think would work well for me in the woods.

I saw that bike, and I'm keeping it in the back of my mind. But, I'm also actively talking with a member about another one that's posted for sale. Will keep y'all updated on what pans out.

Welcome to the forum!

To address your questions and insert my opinions, I'll try to answer you questions as they are grouped above.

The e-start needs an inexpensive ($50 for the part) mod to make it work great and be extremely reliable. There is a thread on the forum and linked youtube vids that will make it easy for you.

-

The seat foam is available from Guts Racing in three configurations; low, standard, and tall. I am 6' tall, with a 32" inseam, and I use the "tall medium" foam. The taller foam makes it easier (more leverage for my knees)
to get my butt off the seat and stand on the pegs. I can touch the balls of both feet at the same time on both the 2006 and the 2011.
The Guts foam is also available in three densities; soft, standard, and hard. The stock GasGas seat foam feels hard, but lets you feel what's under it too soon during a ride.

If the bike is still taller than you like, you can have a 7/8" spacer added
inside the shock and a 2" spacer inside the forks to take 2" off the travel, while keeping 90-95% of the suspension performance.
I did this to a bike for my grandson when he was riding the '00 XC200 I fixed up for him. It is also reversible when you want more. (Just have the spacers removed.)

-

The 200, 250, and 300 are all the same size, and will weigh close to the same (within 6#). Don't get hung up on the peak power figures in the literature.
I have always told people that:
1. The 300 is the lazy rider's mount. It has so much low end torque that you don't have to wring it out. Just short shift it and lug up the hills.
2. The 250 is the racer's bike. It needs a little more throttle to do what the 300 will do, but the engine feels a bit "more flexible" and revs up and down with less "fuss". You short shift and lug it also, and it is very smooth, but it doesn't give you more than you ask for when you get excited.
3. The 200 is smooth, and revs up and down with little top end torque effect; but you will need to add revs to get to the big power in the sweet spot. It has decent low end power, but doesn't have the bottom end (low revs) torque that the KTM 200s have. The good news is that it loves to rev and the power will not "sign off" and go flat like the KTM does at higher rpms. My youngest son regularly leaves me when riding his XC200.

-

I love Brushy Mtn. It's my favorite riding place east of the Mississippi River.

Good Riding to You!
Jim


.

 

[(F5)]

Loved my 200.
But then had a ride on a mates 300. Didn't want to give it back. The 250 was too motorcrossy for my level of skill.
The 300 is probably a lazy riders bike. But it's perfect for me. Just did 99km some of it quite technical. And Brrraaap up the hills.

Went looking for my Forget the whales save the 2 stroke Tshirt last night Must be somewhere.