New Wheel Set - Butchered Spoke through holes?

[mlyle11]

Hello all!
Hope all goes well and thanks in advance for reading and posting. I recently picked up a GG wheel set that was reported to be brand new. The seller has a good rating and has yet to reply, so I am only posting for thoughts from the group before I go into full attack mode. The seller told me he sent this set to Rad Mfg because they wanted to measure the hubs so they could start making Rad Hubs for GG. He said they look to have been never mounted, unused other than the measurement by Rad. The box had Rad Mfg tape on it, so I assume the story is correct. I got the wheel today and I am freaked out by what looks to be a butcher job on the hubs where someone may have drilled out the OEM spoke holes to put in larger spokes. It?s as if they drilled from the inside of the hub, and as the drill pushed through they kept going and then put deep gouges into the outside of the hub where the drill touched the surface. POOR WORKMANSHIP! Some new spokes have the larger diameter at the base; it?s only a guess at why someone would do this to these hubs! Sorry if this all seems disjointed I am so pissed I can hardly type! I hope it?s just me over reacting!

I have heard of some weird stuff going on at the GG factory between model changes and want to see if anyone has seen something like this. Whatever it is it looks like a hack job, and I am worried that the structural integrity of the hub has been compromised. Especially the way the material is drilled out near the spoke hole and around the outside of the bearing area. This is a major stress point in the hub, lots of shock and transfer and the gouges create stress risers, which lead to cracks, which lead to a VERY BAD DAY in the woods! I hope the pictures do it justice. I will post more if needed. AAAARRRRGGGGGG!

Thanks for any thoughts and help!

Mike

 

[Jakobi]

I have noticed a similar sort of thing on one of my hubs 2010 model that I bought brand new. Not as consistant around each one but definately one or two marks that had me scratching my head as to what had happened.

 

[arminhammer]

Looks like someone was holding them in a chuck.

 

[mlyle11]

That's what I though initially with regards to Rad measuring them, but if they were using a CMM or a Romer arm, you wouldnt need that much turning power... I hope! I would have mounted them on centers and measured. My guess is they scan versus use contact measurement as well. When you look really close (easy when in hand, hard with my pictures), the gouges perfectly align with the spoke through holes. I also used a magnifying glass (starting to get the picture of my geeky life) and a strong light to look around the spoke holes, and you can see where the drill took the powder coating off. IT;s very frustrating, you could have done this job with a high quality ream and monitored the depth or used a depth ring to prevent damage. Its like some fool when wild and just bored the hell out of them.

Any thoughts on structural integrity? I'm old, so now doubles in my riding life, but I do hit the woods pretty hard. You know the drill, rocks, logs, and a few oh sh!t moments where I probable put more stress on the rims than I should. I'm a 220 pound rider as well; suspension is properly set for the weight.

 

[FinGas]

The touched areas are low stress so just go & ride...

 

[moto9]

Ya, I wouldn't sweat that too much.

 

[nato]

As the others have said it is not going to effect the structural integrity of the hub but if i was buying something that is suppose to be in an in new condition i would not be stoked! If they fail to come to the party with replacing it maybe you can source some paint to throw over it if your a rider who likes to be finicky.

 

[TNT Cycle]

Both of my 2010 wheels look like that...I think its actually the mill head hitting the hub when the holes were machined into the hub?...

 

[mlyle11]

Lots of consensus not to worry, but I am very picky on workmanship, so still pretty gassed (no pun intended) about it. I took it to a local machine shop that makes some parts for my work and my bikes, and he definitley called it as someone needing to ream out the spoke through holes. The marks perfectly align. He noted the spokes that are in the hub (OEM I would think) have a larger base, so it seems they reamed them to get them to fit, and just kept on pushing through, maybe it was automated, but he felt it wsa an after thought. He doesnt like the structural aspect, becasue there are so many marks on the hub, and they are near the spoke holes. Of course he builds high dollar precision automated assembly equipment, so to him this is just plain poor work, and not durable.

Makes me wonder, maybe GG was mix matching parts and had to ream the hubs to get they new spokes to fit?

I confirmed the wheels came from Gofasters, who I have bought many parts from, and have never had an issue with. I am going to call them and get their opinion. I am headed to Halls Saturday to see what their lead tech thinks.

I paid 515 for the set, I felt that was a good deal for new brand new Excel Takasagos, complete hubs with bearings and spacers, and new stainless spokes. However, if I would have seen pictures of this detail, I would have dropped out around 300. The wheel set is listed on GOfasters for 899.

I wish I wasnt so damn picky, my bikes would get put togeter quicker, cheaper, and I wouldnt lose sleep!

Thanks for all the comments. I will post the thoughts from Gofasters and Halls.

 

[mlyle11]

Another thought, these marks are after paint, I would have hoped all machining was completed before paint. At least in all the work I do with secondary machining, paint is the final operation.

 

[djroggen]

I would imagine the blank hubs would be painted prior to paint, to avoid the paint going in the clean machined holes. $515 sounds like a steal to me.

 

[Supercycleshop]

they look brand new to me??? obviously the hubs had to be modded to work with whatever spoke/rim setup it has..

550 for even a used excel setup is cheap.

the marks are obviously from machining and not from use, so the seller really wasn't wrong when stating them as new.


i'd say if you are unhappy return them completely, but don't try to get the seller to give you a little $ back as you did get NEW wheels like described and the price was cheap already.

 

[mcnut]

The 2010 wheels we have for spares look very similar but weren't machined quite as deeply as the ones shown.
As a former Quality Assurance Engineer, it just appears to be shoddy workmanship. The wheels we have had all sorts of flashing and sharp, unfinished edges from the machining.

 

[mlyle11]

I guess I'm just too damn picky and appear to be in the minority. Get some touch up paint and ride seems to be the consensus. I will add some more pictures today I took in the lab in our plant. I have some close ups from around the holes. The seller did contact me and now remembers the machine marks and is willing to work with me. I have no doubt they are new, i just feel if you post something for sale, this should have been clearly pointed out. These marks are on both hubs, each side, some deeper than others. The seller told me the full history. From his response:
" The wheels should be fine, as far as I know, they were taken off 2010 models by Gas Gas to make the left over 2010's look like 2011's (these were the very first bikes brought into the USA for 2011).
The early 2011 models with Sachs suspension were the updated 2010's" This from gofasters.

I am the plant manager for a facility that manufactures brake hoses, tubing assemblies, and oil cooler hoses for the OEM automotive and ATV industry. Everyone form Honda to BMW, GM to Navistar. We have a full machine shop and lab, deal with cold forming, bar stock machining, stamping, extrusions, all types of secondary machining, molded parts, brass, steel, rubber, plastic, etc. We have 130 assembly machines and 25 assembly cells. We would never release this type of work. None of my operators, inspectors, or engineers would accept this. Our culture is pride in workmanship; our customers are the most demanding in the world. There is a note on every print we release it states: Burrs, sharp edges, and foreign material resulting from good manufacturing practices are acceptable providing they are not detrimental to assembly, function, or safe handling". In my experience, this is not a good manufacturing practice, and it is also not a burr or sharp edge, it is damage, which is never acceptable.
At this point it goes back to GG factory as the cause. If I bought a brand new 2010 with hubs that looked like this, I would be disappointed, concerned, and ask the dealer to replace them.
I officially concede it is what it is, but I will post what Halls and Gofasters have to say.

Thanks again to all for the thoughts and comments. This is the best site out there, with the best members!

 

[mlyle11]

Updated Pictures

Attached are final shots from today. Keep in mind the damage exisit on every spoke boss, each side of the hub, both hubs. It may seem little but the add all that damage up, equally distributed around the hub, and makes me worry. Last post will be responses from Gofasters and Halls.

 

[gasgasman]

You have too many doubts in your mind. I would just return the hubs.

The "damage" could be from the hubs being shipped with a sprocket or something.

 

[FinGas]

I totally disagree about the marks around spokes being in stress area. Stress comes directionally along the spoke to spoke butt and is then distributed to hub frame. Biggest loads would be just under spoke butt and the material around the end of the spoke is just excess as ther is no stress. If there would be a FEM (finite element analysis) picture available of a hub it would show that in graphical format.

I would be more worrid about the marks in the bearing collar. That is much, much more a stress area. But looking at the pictures- the marks were located in the area where the seal is, not bearings so no worries there either!

If you really care about metal fatigue, then file any sharp edges carefully as that's where cracks would start.

Or just return the wheels. If i was a dealer i would not give any discount on these... The price was really good already..

 

[Jakobi]

I would be pretty upset if these arrived on a new bike, or were bought presumed to be in perfect condition. In saying that you are putting far too much thought and worry into it. Either be happy you got them at such a good price to start with or return them for a refund. I'm sure if they have set in better condition in stock they will offer an exchange.

 

[mlyle11]

The seller is very helpful. He is willing to take them back if it comes to that. I overthink everything... except marriage... I really should have overthought that...
I just spent the last 4 hours reviewing FEA of motorcycle and bicycle spoked wheels. Bicycles, because there is not much out there on motorcycles. The key thing I learned is that the spokes do transmit energy through the hub, that's how all energy gets to the hub. However, impact (hard landings, rocks, logs, etc.) is not the main stressor. In these cases the hubs somewhat "float". Braking and torque transmit the most. I have done FEA analysis on brackets, if you happen to drive a GM product, we probably designed your brake hoses, and the brackets that hold the hose to the frame or the control arm. However, I know nothing about spoked (or any) wheel design. The FEA's I could find do now show much. One college SAE paper points out the stress applied in torque through braking and well lets call it "roosting" is significant and the load is trasnmitted through the sokes into the hub. Highest stress being where the spokes connect to the hub. Very little red, most the graphics where yellow/orange. I'm done obsessing.

I will grind (dremel) the sharps down as suggested, make them nice and smooth, grab some red touch up paint and get these things mounted. I will monitor them like a hawk for cracks and report back. Pictures of the complete project to come soon. These red hubs have me wishing I would have done red plastic versus blue, but at least I will look partriotic!

I lube and torque the spokes after each ride, I dont powerwash, and I love my Gas Gas. Badlands here I come...

Thanks again for the comments!

 

[Jakobi]

Thats the spirit I'm going to lube my spokes too! If I can remember I'll take the camera and snap a few pics of my grey and dirt stained hubs for you too. They've taken 165hrs of punsihment so far.