Ring Gap @ 40 hrs

wa_ndro

New member
So just did the rings on my 2013 300 R at 40 hrs - everything looked great, been running Motul 800 from day one.

One thing I noticed : the rings that were in there had gaps of :
Top ring : 0.61 mm (24 thou)
Bottom Ring : 0.33 mm (13 thou)

Seems like that bottom ring was super tight from the factory, anyone else had this?

Anyway, new rings in at 0.4mm (16 thou) and she runs sweet :)
 
wa_ndro, please do not think I'm being a smart ass or pulling your chain! I am serious in the question......why did you replace the rings? Do you race? Was it running bad? Did it break? My 2004 EC300 (got her new in 2010,she sat on the dealer floor unloved for almost 7 years!) has >10K miles and I can see no reason at all to screw with her. She starts on a couple kicks, idles fine, will kill my 450FSE in any kind of contest.

Make no mistake, at the first hint of a problem I'd stop and fix her but I've been riding bikes for >50 years (if you count "minibikes",holy shit!) and have had exactly one catastrophic engine failure and even then my beloved "Bunny" (BAD ASS Cr250R) made it to the parking lot.

So, again, please do not read anything into my question but I'm curious why so many fellows replace rings/pistons so often. I can see it if racing or it breaks or is running bad but other than that why bother?

I've not been able to wear any engine I bought new to the point of a rebuild or re-ring. At least that I thought needed or would benefit from messing with and I put a LOT of miles on my bikes and cars, a LOT.

I don't enjoy working on things anymore and if they ain't broke, I'm not! :)

So, after all that, why did you re-ring her! :)
Ed
 
None taken mate!
It is a contentious issue for sure. I guess its the middle of summer here, so I try to do any maintenance in the off season and at 100 bucks for the parts it was pretty easy.
Also thought it was time to open her up and check the famous GasGas quality control...
Still not sure why the ring gaps were so different - anyone else noticed this?
 
I've noticed the top ring wear faster on one engine I have here too. I let it run up to 110hrs though and it was near max spec. The piston had also been run lean at some stage through my tinkering. My guess is that the top ring just sees more of the heat and combustion forces acting upon it, as well as possibly wearing against the upper edge of the exhaust port on the return stroke.

I like your stance Ed ;) Always a delicate topic, but it really comes down to personal preference. You use more oil, and change parts less often. Others run leaner ratios and change things periodically. At between 40-50:1 I still have enough oil floating around to see things are well lubricated so I'm happy with that. At 100hrs I have evidence of blow by, larger ring ends gaps, and usually with a stock cast piston some signs of wear on the skirt. Perhaps this wouldn't happen with higher volumes of oil? Maybe it would?

At the end of the day, I trust that slug and those rings floating on it to continue to work at around the rate of anywhere between 50-120 revolutions per second. Even at the lower end of the spectrum (average of only 3000rpm), over 75hrs thats a total of 13 500 000 revoltions, with the rings doing a whole lot of work. To me, they deserve to be changed.

Its a bit like a tyre. When they are new they are great. With some wear they don't quite have the edge they did, but it seems pointless to throw them out so soon (not cost/time effective), but at some point before the rubber is worn down to the carcass they will be replaced. That exact point will depend on the person who owns the bike and what they expect from it.
 
RJ, what oil and the ratio? Let me guess, not 28-32 to one, maybe 50 to one or less oil? Again, guys I swear I'm not trying to "stir the pot", I truly am a curious guy..........I blame all engine wear on too little oil...hahahahah!

Don't forget, I do NOT race my bikes, I don't wash them either but I do put a LOT of miles on them and I'm not the slowest of my "mates" :)

Thanks guys!
Ed
 
Few more variables here too...
Consider my bottom ring : gap was outside the minimum spec recommended by factory, after 40 hrs....go figure
 
Wa_ndro, you mean inside the min. specs., right? It was .33mm at 40 hrs. and now with new rings it's at .4 mm. It sounds to me like the end gaps were not exactly right from the start on both or at least the top was excessive, if the top was so large and the bottom so tight.

Regardless, if she's running good, she is good. In my field there is a saying..."if it measures good and sounds bad it is bad, if it measures bad and sounds good it is good". I am always curious as to why things are as they are and I like to know as much as I can.

Jakobi, I really respect your opinions and thoughts....It does make sense to me the top ring could wear faster, I have a couple guys who would know right off if this is common and I'll ask them about it.

I agree stuff should be changed. I've just never wore a dirt bike out to where I thought I needed to do anything. Hell, my XR 250 went 15 years with nothing but oil changes....I never even adjusted the valves. Thought about it a couple times, then decided to ride instead.

Dang it, it just occurred to me.....I have seldom if ever replaced engine parts over the life of my bikes over the last 50 years I've been riding. I've not had but one catastrophic engine failure and that was on a "built to the gills" '97 CR250 R, She was bad ass. and finally spit a crank bearing after following my wife around on her Honda CRF150F for 25 miles through tight woods in 100 degree heat. She was a beast and deserved the rebuild she got. She was tricked out with every thing you can imagine. The porting, the crazy head, the cut slide, the stupid made no sense jetting.....

She did not die from neglect, she died because her heart (crank bearings had finally had it) gave out BUT she required no more money or work to bring her back to that tight 18 year old girl that she used to be.

It can be argued her rings were worn and she was a little tired but had I done a top end I would have had to do it again when she spit the bearing. Since I had her for several years what if I had done a top end twice? I would have wasted money since the rings/piston made it past the crank bearings.

So, in my long winded way............who has had engine failures from neglect and who has had engine failures even with periodic rebuilds.

My guess is that there are little differences in catastrophic failures between the groups. If enough oil is used...hahahahh.

Remember, I do NOT race, I just ride race bikes :)
Ed
 
Determining the underlying cause of catastrophic failure.. I would argue in the majority of cases it would be something other than wear and tear alone. Poor jetting, not enough (or no oil), leaning out due to air leaks, or pulling foreign matter though the engine.

I've seen a little WR250F rack up over 13,000kms on a stock engine without a valve re-shimmed. Clean air filters and frequent quality oil changes. There is no denying that looking after what you has will prolong its life. But then again, I don't really look after my bike (riding it through creeks, mud holes, jetting sometimes too lean), so it makes sense to spend the little extra time and dollars to keep it where it should be.

Each to their own, their time, and their budget.
 
Gas Gas also specifys 40Nm on the crankshaft pinion nut. Something that should be around 100Nm.

At .4 minimum its a safe minimum. I've never seen a Wossner/Vertex ring come out of the box at .4mm and I doubt the GG factory would spend time gapping each ring to that spec if they are still within an acceptable tolerance.
 
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