Severe clutch problem EC 300 2019
- Thread starter Doc Brown
- Start date
So far I have tried:
Nils 10/40 (thats what GasGas fills ex factory)
Motul 15/50 and 15/60 (as I thought oil that is thicker when hot reduces squawking)
Amsoil Dirt Bike 10/50 (designed for extra clutch feel and protection)
Putoline Nanotrans GP (24 per quart, very thin, very expensive but had worst clutch feel)
All of the above are motorcycle oils for use with wet clutches.
I tried various mc oils already, its not a question of the price. To be honest I have no clue what else could help but got a hint on TT forum and maybe will give this a try.
Today I will try Motul Gear Trans 10/40 that is what a German racing team uses but I don't think it will change anything. maybe i will drill some extra holes in the pressure plate, that is what helped someone else on a KTM and is worth a try...
Short update:
I drilled 12 holes, similar to what a guy showed me in the Dirtrider_net forum
This is how I drilled the holes (5.5 mm):
Pressure plate outside
Pressure plate inside
I decided to make some "keyholes" on the outer holes so that oil can easier get to the discs.
I filled fresh oil and then warmed the bike up and started in 4th and 5th gear with lots of clutch*feathering and I really let it scream. No noises so far, but a serious test will follow next week in the woods. I also measure the throwout and its good and like it should be, when the clutch*is pulled I can see the plate lifts fine.
Unfortunately the dragging problem is back. Talked to an experienced motor cycle engineer and he said the plates are sticking, probably they are a few thou too thick. He said ride the damn thing or get a new set OEM friction disks. Its definitely a problem caused by the plates...
Will keep you updated. Thanks for the help guys, you are great !!!
I drilled 12 holes, similar to what a guy showed me in the Dirtrider_net forum
This is how I drilled the holes (5.5 mm):
Pressure plate outside
Pressure plate inside
I decided to make some "keyholes" on the outer holes so that oil can easier get to the discs.
I filled fresh oil and then warmed the bike up and started in 4th and 5th gear with lots of clutch*feathering and I really let it scream. No noises so far, but a serious test will follow next week in the woods. I also measure the throwout and its good and like it should be, when the clutch*is pulled I can see the plate lifts fine.
Unfortunately the dragging problem is back. Talked to an experienced motor cycle engineer and he said the plates are sticking, probably they are a few thou too thick. He said ride the damn thing or get a new set OEM friction disks. Its definitely a problem caused by the plates...
Will keep you updated. Thanks for the help guys, you are great !!!
Thank you! Yes, though I bought a set of new ones I checked them and they were -as I expected- perfectly straight.
For the physicians who may read here.
One of my ideas to get rid of the clutch drag my bike has when engine is hot and has been turned off for a period longer 20 seconds, was to use a longer clutch push rod or add a washer under the throwout bearing.
After I had postet this in another forum one of the guys said that wont change anything and I am sure he is right. because the added length would be eaten up by the slave piston just traveling back in its cylinder for exactly the amount the rod has been lengthened.
Then I read (here) that some guys used a CRF clutch and to compensate the stack height used a thinner washer between clutch basket and hub.
Thinking that over I come to the conclusion that wont work with my bike either. The thinner washer would move the hub back relative to the push rod. Thats true, but only as long as the pressure plate isn't installed. As soon as I put the pressure plate on the push rod would be pushed back its normal way plus the amount of the reduced spacer.
So my ordered spacers are best used as paper weights.
What can I do to get more lift or in other words what can I modify so that the push rod will lift the pressure plate 0,5mm or so more?
Only idea I have is getting thinner steels....
One of my ideas to get rid of the clutch drag my bike has when engine is hot and has been turned off for a period longer 20 seconds, was to use a longer clutch push rod or add a washer under the throwout bearing.
After I had postet this in another forum one of the guys said that wont change anything and I am sure he is right. because the added length would be eaten up by the slave piston just traveling back in its cylinder for exactly the amount the rod has been lengthened.
Then I read (here) that some guys used a CRF clutch and to compensate the stack height used a thinner washer between clutch basket and hub.
Thinking that over I come to the conclusion that wont work with my bike either. The thinner washer would move the hub back relative to the push rod. Thats true, but only as long as the pressure plate isn't installed. As soon as I put the pressure plate on the push rod would be pushed back its normal way plus the amount of the reduced spacer.
So my ordered spacers are best used as paper weights.What can I do to get more lift or in other words what can I modify so that the push rod will lift the pressure plate 0,5mm or so more?
Only idea I have is getting thinner steels....
What about a Rekluse adjustable slave cylinder? Maybe give them a call. I’ve heard great things about their tech support.
The one problem with the adjustable slave when not using the Rekluse clutch pack is that it might not adjust back far enough as it meant to always hold the clutch disengaged when the engine stopped.
Or just spring for a Rekluse auto clutch or even manual clutch (if they make a manual clutch for the GG)
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The one problem with the adjustable slave when not using the Rekluse clutch pack is that it might not adjust back far enough as it meant to always hold the clutch disengaged when the engine stopped.
Or just spring for a Rekluse auto clutch or even manual clutch (if they make a manual clutch for the GG)
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Gasser Nate
New member
For the physicians who may read here.
One of my ideas to get rid of the clutch drag my bike has when engine is hot and has been turned off for a period longer 20 seconds, was to use a longer clutch push rod or add a washer under the throwout bearing.
After I had postet this in another forum one of the guys said that wont change anything and I am sure he is right. because the added length would be eaten up by the slave piston just traveling back in its cylinder for exactly the amount the rod has been lengthened.
Then I read (here) that some guys used a CRF clutch and to compensate the stack height used a thinner washer between clutch basket and hub.
Thinking that over I come to the conclusion that wont work with my bike either. The thinner washer would move the hub back relative to the push rod. Thats true, but only as long as the pressure plate isn't installed. As soon as I put the pressure plate on the push rod would be pushed back its normal way plus the amount of the reduced spacer.
What can I do to get more lift or in other words what can I modify so that the push rod will lift the pressure plate 0,5mm or so more?
Only idea I have is getting thinner steels....
You can get a master cylinder with a bigger bore size. It?ll make the lever slightly heavier though.
Thank you.
Yeah I was thinking about that, I will wait for the new clutch and then see what I will do next. I am really tight at the mo, but maybe I should get the manual core kit. Unfortunately it's about US$ 1110.- where I live, plus 25 p&p.
Mh... not a bad idea, currently its a Magura 9.5mm but I have heard that 10.5's are available too.
No, we checked that twice. We removed the small rubber to see how far the piston is travelling, all good. I also have, though it wasn't necessary installed a master cylinder repair kit.
Today we installed a new slave cylinder. But no joy either. Only obvious change is I need more force to pull the lever in now. The new slave has a different piston with two o-rings. Other than that it's identical.
I struggled all day with it whenever I stalled the engine I needed to immediately restart it, which isn't a problem. But waiting 20 seconds and I was unable to restart it as it pulls forward so vigorous. Putting it in gear and it dies instantly. Same when engine is cold...
As soon as the second set of new discs arrives I will give it a last try...
Jacob 'Berg
Member
Is it still making noise as well?
If all your testing and changes don't show any improvement, I suggest you try 900ml of automatic transmission fluid. It should be thin enough to mostly eliminate your clutch plate drag during normal operation.
My clutch plates will stick together if my bike is not used for a month. Once free they are back to normal. Mine are probably worn well below the factory spec, but they keep on working. The clutch drags more than I'd like but that seems to be a characteristic of wet clutches. I use Rotella T6 synthetic 0W40 diesel engine oil in the gearbox. The clutch only squawks if I'm riding a gear too high for the riding conditions. It's not loud enough to be annoying. It is however a 2011 model so it may not compare to your machine.
My clutch plates will stick together if my bike is not used for a month. Once free they are back to normal. Mine are probably worn well below the factory spec, but they keep on working. The clutch drags more than I'd like but that seems to be a characteristic of wet clutches. I use Rotella T6 synthetic 0W40 diesel engine oil in the gearbox. The clutch only squawks if I'm riding a gear too high for the riding conditions. It's not loud enough to be annoying. It is however a 2011 model so it may not compare to your machine.
No, that's gone, at least for now. I tortured it quite a bit yesterday and didn't hear anything. Clutch action felt good with the Motul Trans Oil 10/40 that my GasGas garage recommended, shifting was a bit clunky though.
In the meantime I think that the problem hasn't to do with hydraulics. I will take everything apart, try the new clutch discs. If the problem does not get any better I will take the Rekluse basket out and install the OEM one again for testing. Problem is, I always must travel to Hungaria to test, thats about 75 miles one way...
As @ Neil said I will also test ATF though I always said "dont use it", but any port in a storm.
I don't think it has to do with the basket from Rekluse though it appeared after I installed it. But at the same time I installed the Kevlar friction plates and new steels and I had no problem the first three hours apart from that it squealed again. And that is the strange thing, it did not drag the first three hours. The bike sat in the garage for a week or so and then it started to make trouble. Maybe the friction discs swell...I have no more ideas but I will measure stack height and plate thickness once the fookin' new clutch arrives...
Keep you updated. Many thanks for all the help. That is really great! Appreciate it!
edit: I said I will install the OEM basket again, but now that I think it over....I have drilled out the rivets for the drive gear and installed the drive gear to the Rekluse basket... so I will not do that...
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There might be one more option. When I asked my dealer about clutch plates (since I should probably replace mine), he said that Sherco clutch plates are a direct replacement for the clutch plates in my 2011. I'd just buy the frictions since I'm almost as much of a cheapskate as our favourite Kiwi guy.
dzhitshard
New member
not on the 2019
Update: Disassembled the clutch yesterday and took all measurements which are important. I will post them here as they are quite interesting.
Lets start with the old (in fact new) kevlar clutch plates I installed a few weeks ago.
Clutch friction plate thickness (in mm): between 2.72 and 2.74mm. Only one plate was 2.72 most others had 2.73 or 2.74. All friction plates together showed a height of 22.22mm. All steel plates had exactly 1.5mm so the stack of steels was 10.5mm. Total height of steels and friction discs: 32.72mm
Width of the teeth of the friction discs was between 13.74 and 13.82mm Only one tooth was over 13.8mm, most were between 13.75 and 13.78mm
The distance between the "fingers" (dunno the English term) of the Rekluse basket was between 14.00 and 14.06mm. Considering the difference between the 14.00 of the basket and the width of the teeth of the friction plate there was enough room so that none of the plates had a chance to get tilted and therefore blocks the clutch.
Clutch pressure plate lift:
with OEM slave cylinder: 1.22mm
with new OEM cylinder: 1.33mm
Difference in clutch plate lift with clutch lever in its farthest position and its closest position from/to the bars: 0.3mm (1.22 vs 0.92) This I tested only with the old slave the bike came with. When lever is closest, drag increases significantly.
Just as info: the new style slave has the same cylinder, at least visually it seems to be identical. The new piston is slightly higher and carries two o-rings that seal against the piston. The internal spring is very soft.
The slave the bike came from factory has a lower piston with only one o-ring and a much, at least 5 times stronger internal spring.
Feel on the lever with the new slave is somewhat different, feels a bit spongy towards the end, before the lever touches the bars. Also the pull is slightly firmer.
The new friction discs looked different but exactly as the ones I took out a few weeks ago and unfortunately binned. On the pictures below you can see that it says "Adige" on the plates. That is very likely the producer. You can also see that these plates teeth went through a face milling process.
Thickness of brand new friction plates (dry) between 2.71 (thinnest and only one) and 2.75 (thickest and also only one). Most had between2.72 and 2.74mm.
Height of all friction plates: 22.19mm, so just a difference of -0.03mm. As I used the same perfectly straight steels the height of the whole package was also 0.03mm lower, exactly 32.69mm.
I tend to say the tolerance of the caliper rule is somewhere near 0.2 or 0.3 so there is no significant difference in the stack height.
Also the width of the teeth of the new friction plates was exactly 13.74mm.
Here two pictures: first the old clutch plates which were in fact only about 20 hours in use. Second one shows the brand new OEM plates from GasGas:
After we made all the measurements and a thorough visual inspection as far it was possible without taking the hub and basket out I was really sad as from a logical stand point the replacement of the plates would not have changed anything. So I decided to put the old plates in again.
My friend then convinced me to give the new plates a try and I really did not want to put them in but finally agreed.
Startet the bike and put it in gear and it slightly dragged forward and dragged even more when I started it in gear. But it always did that when cold and it was significantly better than with the old friction plates. Then let the bike idle for a minute and made a test drive. Clutch action was fine and I had the impression that it shifted smoother.
Then stopped the engine and waited 30 seconds, re-started and put it in gear and: nothing, no jump forward no noises. Rode it for a minute, stopped engine in gear, waited 25 seconds re-started, only minimal drag. Almost perfect. Tried this about 30 times, then really let the engine heat up but all was good.
So why I am not happy (yet) ? Well, because it was as good when I first replaced the friction discs and the problem appeared after a first ride in the enduro terrain. It was good for 3 hours. The next ride it was there. It didnt start to get worse, no it was there after the first 15 minutes.
Unfortunately I will not be able to ride before first week September but will inform you when I am back. I hope it won't squeal as my next ride will be in tough terrain but in the meantime I wished I had not started to get rid of the squeal which was by far less annoying than the dragging issue.
In the meantime, many thanks for taking the time to read all this and for all your help and very useful hints. Much obliged, guys!
Lets start with the old (in fact new) kevlar clutch plates I installed a few weeks ago.
Clutch friction plate thickness (in mm): between 2.72 and 2.74mm. Only one plate was 2.72 most others had 2.73 or 2.74. All friction plates together showed a height of 22.22mm. All steel plates had exactly 1.5mm so the stack of steels was 10.5mm. Total height of steels and friction discs: 32.72mm
Width of the teeth of the friction discs was between 13.74 and 13.82mm Only one tooth was over 13.8mm, most were between 13.75 and 13.78mm
The distance between the "fingers" (dunno the English term) of the Rekluse basket was between 14.00 and 14.06mm. Considering the difference between the 14.00 of the basket and the width of the teeth of the friction plate there was enough room so that none of the plates had a chance to get tilted and therefore blocks the clutch.
Clutch pressure plate lift:
with OEM slave cylinder: 1.22mm
with new OEM cylinder: 1.33mm
Difference in clutch plate lift with clutch lever in its farthest position and its closest position from/to the bars: 0.3mm (1.22 vs 0.92) This I tested only with the old slave the bike came with. When lever is closest, drag increases significantly.
Just as info: the new style slave has the same cylinder, at least visually it seems to be identical. The new piston is slightly higher and carries two o-rings that seal against the piston. The internal spring is very soft.
The slave the bike came from factory has a lower piston with only one o-ring and a much, at least 5 times stronger internal spring.
Feel on the lever with the new slave is somewhat different, feels a bit spongy towards the end, before the lever touches the bars. Also the pull is slightly firmer.
The new friction discs looked different but exactly as the ones I took out a few weeks ago and unfortunately binned. On the pictures below you can see that it says "Adige" on the plates. That is very likely the producer. You can also see that these plates teeth went through a face milling process.
Thickness of brand new friction plates (dry) between 2.71 (thinnest and only one) and 2.75 (thickest and also only one). Most had between2.72 and 2.74mm.
Height of all friction plates: 22.19mm, so just a difference of -0.03mm. As I used the same perfectly straight steels the height of the whole package was also 0.03mm lower, exactly 32.69mm.
I tend to say the tolerance of the caliper rule is somewhere near 0.2 or 0.3 so there is no significant difference in the stack height.
Also the width of the teeth of the new friction plates was exactly 13.74mm.
Here two pictures: first the old clutch plates which were in fact only about 20 hours in use. Second one shows the brand new OEM plates from GasGas:
After we made all the measurements and a thorough visual inspection as far it was possible without taking the hub and basket out I was really sad as from a logical stand point the replacement of the plates would not have changed anything. So I decided to put the old plates in again.
My friend then convinced me to give the new plates a try and I really did not want to put them in but finally agreed.
Startet the bike and put it in gear and it slightly dragged forward and dragged even more when I started it in gear. But it always did that when cold and it was significantly better than with the old friction plates. Then let the bike idle for a minute and made a test drive. Clutch action was fine and I had the impression that it shifted smoother.
Then stopped the engine and waited 30 seconds, re-started and put it in gear and: nothing, no jump forward no noises. Rode it for a minute, stopped engine in gear, waited 25 seconds re-started, only minimal drag. Almost perfect. Tried this about 30 times, then really let the engine heat up but all was good.
So why I am not happy (yet) ? Well, because it was as good when I first replaced the friction discs and the problem appeared after a first ride in the enduro terrain. It was good for 3 hours. The next ride it was there. It didnt start to get worse, no it was there after the first 15 minutes.
Unfortunately I will not be able to ride before first week September but will inform you when I am back. I hope it won't squeal as my next ride will be in tough terrain but in the meantime I wished I had not started to get rid of the squeal which was by far less annoying than the dragging issue.
In the meantime, many thanks for taking the time to read all this and for all your help and very useful hints. Much obliged, guys!
Update and final conclusion.
In the meantime I have replaced the push rod as mine had a slight dimple in the end towards the slave. I was hoping that will finally cure the dragging. But it didn't. To the contrary the problem is back like it was back the first time after I replaced the whole clutch.
Again I replaced the slave cylinder but as expected it did not change anything. Now I have replaced all parts of the clutch except the line and the clutch lever. Clutch friction plates and slave cylinder have been replaced twice.
After some fighting with myself I have reached the point where I give up as I wont get any further and the whole matter starts to influence my life in a negative way. I sound like a girl, I know. The bike will be back at the dealer end of November latest and I will change over to Beta if I can afford it.
Thank you all for your help and patience with this very strange problem.
You have been of great help and assistance and I really appreciate that.
In the meantime I have replaced the push rod as mine had a slight dimple in the end towards the slave. I was hoping that will finally cure the dragging. But it didn't. To the contrary the problem is back like it was back the first time after I replaced the whole clutch.
Again I replaced the slave cylinder but as expected it did not change anything. Now I have replaced all parts of the clutch except the line and the clutch lever. Clutch friction plates and slave cylinder have been replaced twice.
After some fighting with myself I have reached the point where I give up as I wont get any further and the whole matter starts to influence my life in a negative way. I sound like a girl, I know. The bike will be back at the dealer end of November latest and I will change over to Beta if I can afford it.
Thank you all for your help and patience with this very strange problem.
You have been of great help and assistance and I really appreciate that.
Nope, standard lever, just cut the ball off...
