Strange electrical problem

[GMP]

I had an odd problem during the Hammer Run ride yesterday(great event BTW). Bike was running flawlessly, but after about 10 miles would not idle as well as usual. Harder to start too. Then, all of a sudden it died on a throttle chop for a corner and would not restart. Fuel system fine. Plug looked fine but spark looked a bit weak to me. All connections looked fine. I put a new plug in anyway, nothing. Packed up my tools, gave it one more try and it fired first kick. Ten miles later same thing happened. Got the bike going, ran great but it would not idle well again. Now I'm thinking thermal electrical problem causing weak spark. It was a very cool morning, trail was fast with fast interconnects so a lot of high revs. I doubt the coil as it was probably running plenty cool, as well as the CDI. It was also technically a dual sport so I had my headlight on which I normally do not do. On a wild hunch, I turned off the lights and let the bike cool a bit. Guess what? One kick starts and back to normal for the remaining sixty five or so miles. I'm thinking the stator might be getting hot from excessive load on the lighting coil, possibly a bad regulaor. Yes I know the winding is on a different pole but maybe the core/ambient got hot enough to make a difference. So far thats what makes the most sense, and I will be digging into it shortly.

So, has this happened to anyone else? If so try getting rid of the load on the lighting coil before deciding its a bad CDI.

 

[jostby]

I look forward to seeing what you find. I have a '01 Husky in my shop doing the same thing right now. Belongs to my kids riding buddy. I already figured the same as you but figured I'd check all the wiring for pinches/grounding first but I don't need to tell you that. The bike always starts starts after about 5 to 10 minutes. Doesn't happen in the wide open stuff. Only on tight steep single track.

 

[webmaster]

I don't know how it is in your area - but here - the latest formulations of unleaded fuel are extremely unstable. If it sits in the tank for 2 weeks it goes bad and if the bike gets hot it is hard to start - It sucks. It helps a lot to mix in some av gas. I bought some old style steel jerry cans to store my fuel in and I add stabil.

I need to buy stock in stabil fuel stabilizer....

jeff

 

[GMP]

Jeff,

99% sure its a thermal/electric issue with the stator, cause is the question. Nothing was changed to affect the coil or CDI, and the ride was basically the same before and after the failures. The bike didn't act like it had a fuel problem, it was running real strong, just seemed like it had no ignition at idle speed all of a sudden. Fuel was fresh with a dose of Startron stabilizer, from local Gulf I always fuel my truck, Duc, and everything else at. Weather was cold, which made jetting crisp but not too lean, all established settings nothing new here. I never use pump fuel older than two weeks either, and store it in a VP steel can with the poly liner/cap. I used to always mix VP race gas 50/50 but it just got too expensive and the bike runs great on pump with the JD needle and RB head mod @ 195 PSI. The flip of a switch is all that I did after ruling out all else, from a hard start/no idle back to one kick and a smooth even idle, and a saved day. I would have questioned this myself if I had not done it myself, a first for sure. Season is almost done then I'll tear it down and figure it out.

 

[blitz11]

Hmmmmm. Maybe in addition to my new CDI box, I should look at the stator, too. I am gonna' do my own pulsar, so why not go all the way?

I am also going to go with a battery option on the CDI; that way, if the stator takes a dump, you can get home with a 9V battery.

Not being able to ride sucks.

Good luck with your investigation. I'll be waiting to here what you find.

Thanks.

blitz

 

[iancp5]

Could the ignition side be earthing through the lights when on?

 

[GMP]

I suppose a short in the stator wiring might be possible between the two windings, but would I think that would cause a go/no go situation depending on the switch position. This is clearly thermal, die/cool/restart.

Blitz,

You know what would be way cool to us engineer types? How about a stepper driven power valve actuator mapped in with the ignition curve?

 

[Cruiser]

Hey Glenn,, My 03 did this once,, I went over the electrical system and cleaned grounds and found nothing.. maybe a bad ground at the regulator but??? Did it once after about 4 rides later.. then all was good for 6 months and the next owner never had issue..

 

[GMP]

This bike is prepped like a factory racer. All electrics sealed, taped, greased, and star washers applied where they should be. It gets scrubbed down and hosed after riding and always fires one or two kicks wet. Never an issue until now. My guess is that the greater sustained high revs put more heat into the regulator and stator than usual, perhaps exposing a flaw. I have a good spare 2K-2 stator I can compare values too at both normal and elevated temps, shouldn't be that hard. It would be worse if it fixed itself without any possible explanation or clue.

 

[blitz11]

Hi Glenn,

The problem with the stepper motor is that i think it makes things overly complicated. I want to keep things as simple as possible, and make it easy for the rider to diagnose, if not fix, problems which arise on the trail.

My hypothesis is that the CDI could be improved with the LEDs so that if you are faced with an ignition problem, you'll be able to see what's at fault. I also think $365 for a new box is criminal, considering from what they're constructed. If i can build a spare for $100 which is better than the original, then I carry a spare, and never have to miss a riding opportunity because of ignition failure.

As you stated, the worst are problems that "fix themselves." You chase your tail. Having at least an indicator at the time of a fault may help diagnose.

This site is great. I learn all kinds of things.

thanks.

blitz

 

[GMP]

Your absolutely right on it being more complicated, it would primarily be a learning exercise. What made me think of it is I ran across a stepper/actuator at work about he size of the governer assy.

$365 is criminal, but not as criminal as a $1600 list for a Ducati ECU.

What is your thought on resistor plugs? There is a resistor cap anyway. I have gone both ways with this, and on the '07 have just ran the resistor plugs. I have had no issues with CDIs in the past on Kokusan equipped KTMs and GGs but I did have my ICO lock up once on a KTM300 with a non-resistor plug, never before or after. The wiring route on the GasGas is better and easy to route along the frame (gnd) away from the coil HV wire, and the throttle cable is no where near the coil, unlike my KTMs where it ran across both coil and CDI.

 

[TNT Cycle]

Problem

I know KTM's with the same Kukasan(sp) stators always have trouble with light moisture in the cover that once heated evaporates and shorts the system. Had a 2001 KTM 250 EXC that would run great one day, then the next start hard, go about a mile then shut off. Push home dry out stator and would run fine. It took a complete donor bike to figure this out and as long as stator was dry never had a problem for 3 or 4 more years. It is very comon in KTM's.

My not be problem but it will give mixed results and sometimes would do just like yours and clear up.

Cheers,

Rick

 

[GMP]

I seal the drain in the bottom of the cover, and loctite a short M6 bolt in the bottom of the case. With two gaskets stacked and bonded to the case, the cover seals very well. I remove the cover after washing and leave it off until I prep the bike for the next ride. The ignition is always dry.

 

[blitz11]

I always run a resistor cap and resistor plugs in all of my bikes (old BMWs to the "new" (2002) GG). (Resistor wires when i can, too.)

I don't do it for the ignition (you won't toast an SCR at these current levels), but I do it to damp out any "ringing" associated with the impedance mismatches between plug, cap, and coil.

I learned in the old days (late 1970s) when I would install Vetter Windjammer fairings with radios on customer bikes. W/O resistor plugs and caps, the radios sounded horrible. You'd generate a lot of RFI on a Z-1 kawasaki. The resistor plugs and caps really quieted things down. You can generate quite a field with your ignition. Your experience with the ICO is consistent with what i saw with the radios. Resistor wires were tougher as stock coils had the HT wire molded in.

 

[GMP]

Well I beleive I found and solved the problem, but can't explain why it appeared to be related to the lighting ckt. I started the bike to warm it and change the oil, reached down by the coil and got a hell of a shock. Upon examination the rubber sheath that covers the HV wire was full of water. This is supposed to fit over the HV post on the coil and the wire itself thread into the post, but the bond was broken. Easy to miss as it looked fine. The HV wire was also loose and connection wet. I cleaned and dryed everything out, cut back the HV wire and threaded it back into the coil with some RTV on the outside to seal it. I then slid the sheath over the coil post and bonded it with grip glue. Did the same on the plug cap and taped up the other end of the sheath. Big fat spark, one kick start, bike runs like an animal off the bottom. Throttle response seems better. The stator was fine, clean and dry, no bad solder joints, and measured to spec. Perhaps the lights were a coincedence, and it took some time for the loose/wet connection to dry out from its previous bath.

Just thought I'd pass this on as a followup, so check that HV wire connection, even on a new bike. Grab and twist it a little, if it moves you will have a problem eventually.