1998 ec250 question inside of engine RH side

[Rzez]

Hey all,

I've been tinkering with the ec250 i got a few months back changing the chain, suspension etc. All went well with thanks to you guys!

However I found that the kick starter was starting to kick back at me and damn rite scaring the b-jesus out of me!

Anyways decided the best idea was to start taking the engine RH side off to inspect if a novice could find anything slightly odd.

I'm yet to take the kick starter off and possibly replace a spring? (so I've read somewhere) but the following picture will show a bolt that rusted worst than i've ever seen on my dads old '66 cooper! Can't even see how to get it out. But before I go guns blazing I wanted to see if you guys
a) knew what that bit did
b) does it matter if it's rusted to buggery
c) any ideas on how to fix the kick starter?#
d) Does anything else look shoddy
e) Any idea on the seal thickness as the seal was completely deteriorated, apparently there is .1mm, .3mm or .5mm??
f) i've tried taking a picture of the case which appears to have a crack in it (where you insert the bolt through the whole. Could this be a massive problem? Or even the cause for the kick back? The 3 photos are of the same crack from different angles (not 3 different cracks)

Thanks for all your help guys. I'd ask my dad but he's pretty rubbish hence the '66 cooper is on blocks in the garage which is now next to my bike

Case crack;
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image3.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image4.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image2.jpeg

rusted bolt;
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image.jpeg

 

[Jakobi]

Not sure whats causing the kick back. Did you alter the timing at all?

Clutch cover case - Shouldn't cause an issue if it wasn't leaking. If it was mine I'd look at having it repaired or replaced.

Water pump impellor - Don't waste time trying to undo it. On the other end of the shaft behind the case it has a plastic gear that drives the impellor. Loading up the plastic gear will break it. Remove the RHS engine case and work from there. IE clamp shaft and then use an impact to try and crack the bolt out.

 

[Jakobi]

I see you've removed the rhs engine case bolts already. You'll need to remove the kick starter from the shaft before the lot can come off. It may need some persuasion if the locating dowels are a bit corroded.

 

[Rzez]

Thanks mate that clears a couple if things up. No I've not messed with the timing at all. But the previous owner may have... If I learn how to tinker with the timing could this sort it out?

Thanks
Mike

 

[Rzez]

So finally got the kick start off (my god that was tough). Here's the photo's of what it looks like under the casing. Can anyone tell me if anything looks wrong/ need replacing. The only thing I can see is the spring looks slightly off? But this could be what it's supposed to looks like. Any thoughts?

Thanks again
Mike


http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image1-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image4-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image3-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image2-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image5.jpeg

 

[pscook]

I would be surprised if you found anything that would make the kickstart kick back at you. Kick back is typically a result of a back fire, like having the throttle slightly open, or not kicking from TDC, or even kicking like a girl (and not being ready when it fires).

The spring is a return spring, it shouldn't affect the kicking/starting process.

Other than that, everything looks good. I wouldn't repair that cover, at least I wouldn't weld it. It would be too tough to get it flat enough for sealing after welding. I would use an epoxy (after giving it a good clean), and just flow some epoxy into the cracks, sand it flat after it's cured, then pop it back on.

 

[Jim Cook]

So finally got the kick start off (my god that was tough). Here's the photo's of what it looks like under the casing. Can anyone tell me if anything looks wrong/ need replacing. The only thing I can see is the spring looks slightly off? But this could be what it's supposed to looks like. Any thoughts?

Thanks again
Mike


http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image1-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image4-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image3-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image2-1.jpeg
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/Rzeznicki/image5.jpeg

If the main kickstart spring was "out of time", it would be in a lot more of a bind than it is now, and not let the white plastic bushing ride smoothly on the shaft.
To remove the kickstart shaft assembly, you will need to first pull the clutch basket.
When you do remove the kickstart assembly, keep track of the placement of the "kickstart ratchet pinion" on the shaft (how it is located on the spline). This makes sure that the main spring installs correctly (is "in time").
While you are there, make sure that the "kickstart ratchet pinion" (which disengages the kickstarter by contacting the kickstart ratchet bracket, the little piece bolted to the cases) isn't digging into that little piece and not letting the kickstart lever to rotate back up out of the way. I have had to smooth the bracket with a file, in the past.

I love those counterbalanced 250s. It is an unbelievably smooth engine.

Normally, kicking back is caused by a misfire, either carburetion or ignition.
The timing should be correct just as the stator plate bolts up inside the cases.

Do you have a parts book downloaded? The 2000 engine will be almost identical to yours. (minus the counterbalancer, and the cases are slightly different because of this. The main bearings and all the seals are the same.
The cylinder, head, and cdi are also different.)
http://www.gasgasmotos.es/en/manuals/download-2000_ec_mc_sm_partlist1.pdf.html

The '99 book was not as good to view the diagrams.
For English translated book, look at the 2003. It's a good file and easy to read.
http://www.gasgasmotos.es/en/manuals/download-2003_ec_mc_sm_partlist1.pdf.html

If you need specific parts information for your '98, let me know. I have the paper parts books for everything from '94 through 2006. That exact engine was used from '06 through the early model '99 EC250. Most all it's parts originally started off with either ME256 (engine parts, 250, '96) or BE256 (chassis parts, 250, '96)
As you look through the parts books, you will see that a lot of parts in your engine are the same parts being used in newer models.

Good Riding and Good Wrenching to You!
Jim



.

 

[Rzez]

I would be surprised if you found anything that would make the kickstart kick back at you. Kick back is typically a result of a back fire, like having the throttle slightly open, or not kicking from TDC, or even kicking like a girl (and not being ready when it fires).

The spring is a return spring, it shouldn't affect the kicking/starting process.

Other than that, everything looks good. I wouldn't repair that cover, at least I wouldn't weld it. It would be too tough to get it flat enough for sealing after welding. I would use an epoxy (after giving it a good clean), and just flow some epoxy into the cracks, sand it flat after it's cured, then pop it back on.

Thanks man, it's just great to have a second pair of eyes that have more experience than mine.
kicking like a girl is a possibility as I've only had elec starts before. But also I was under the impression to give it some gas if it doesn't kick over after a few attempts? Also just to make sure I am kicking it rite. Aren't you supposed to push down until you feel some resistance (usually about a 3rd of the way) and then push all the way down from there?

Thanks again guys!

 

[Jakobi]

I agree. Everything under the case looks fine and I don't think it would be the cause of the kick back. As Phil suggested, kick back can be a back fire which is why I questioned if you had messed with the timing at all (earlier posts).

The 2 issues most people enounter with the kick start gears is that they remove it and don't put enough tension back on the main spring thats visible (top left). This stops the kick starter from retracting all the way back after its been pressed down. The second is that there is a spring and pinion behind the starter gear. If the spring is too weak it cause poor engagement and when going to kick the bike the gears slip instead of positively engaging.

 

[Jim Cook]

Thanks man, it's just great to have a second pair of eyes that have more experience than mine.
kicking like a girl is a possibility as I've only had elec starts before. But also I was under the impression to give it some gas if it doesn't kick over after a few attempts? Also just to make sure I am kicking it rite. Aren't you supposed to push down until you feel some resistance (usually about a 3rd of the way) and then push all the way down from there?

Thanks again guys!

One more thing:
One thing that many first time GasGas riders don't realize is that because the kickstart lever is so short and the placement of the lever, you should get forward on the seat and kick the lever to the rear, instead of simply downward.


.

 

[Rzez]

thank you for all your replies, hopefully once it's all back together i'll meet some of you out and about. "Jim Cook", that description was amazing!! I now understand how it works, by referring everything you said to the manual. Thank you so much!!! Have to buy a few screws and that part guide's going to help 10 fold too! If you're ever in the Bristol area let me know you can sort my bike out for me

 

[Jim Cook]

thank you for all your replies, hopefully once it's all back together i'll meet some of you out and about. "Jim Cook", that description was amazing!! I now understand how it works, by referring everything you said to the manual. Thank you so much!!! Have to buy a few screws and that part guide's going to help 10 fold too! If you're ever in the Bristol area let me know you can sort my bike out for me

You are very welcome.
Bristol; is that in TN? We're not that far away, relatively speaking.

If a bike's carb has a large enough pilot jet (40, 42, or 45), and the slow speed circuits are clear, the following works for me.
If the bike is cold, try the choke and no throttle.
If it's been running that day, and the weather is not cold, no choke and the throttle closed. (If it is cold weather and the bike has been sitting for longer than 30 minutes, I may have to use the choke when I kick it over.)
If it doesn't start within 5 or six kicks, I hold the throttle wide open and give it a kick. (Mine usually starts first kick.)

Good luck, and if I can assist you in any way, just let me know.

Good Riding!
Jim