2011 fork help, do I need ohlins inserts

[gasgasmick]

Hey guys,
I sent my 2011 ec 300 forks and shock off for a service and re valve but after my first ride I'm still not happy. The spring rates were correct for my weight ( 85kg ) however the front forks still deflect off sharp rock edges and other square edged debris leaving me hesitant every time I see a nasty rock on the trail?.im not too happy with the result but I live in perth and sent them all the way over to Sydney and don't really want to send them there again.
I spoke to the guys and confirmed their base settings which were as follows
forks: compression 14 clicks out
rebound 12 clicks out
rear shock: H.S comp 8 clicks out
L.S comp 10 clicks out
rebound 12 clicks out

I set the rear sag up and it is around 100mm with static sag around 25-30mm
My next step is to take 10mm ( volume ) of oil out of each fork leg and see if it is a little plusher

If this doesn't work has anyone got any feedback with the ohlins inserts? My fork are the standard sachs. If the ohlins are well worth it where is the best place to source these from, I would need them delivered to perth. Do the ohlins perform great on tree roots/sharp edges etc. I mainly ride endure and would class myself as intermediate to advance?more on the intermediate side though


Thanks in advance for any feedback

 

[bkwdc]

In my opinion; the TTX are worth it.

 

[Fred1956]

In my opinion; the TTX are worth it.

Especially after they are properly setup Jakobi can help you out 'down under'

 

[Jakobi]

I haven't even felt the need to revalve the TTX carts in my Sachs legs. You might be able to source a clearance set.

Ride wise, the blow away the stock Sachs, and are very close to the 48mm CC Zokes. I actually think I might give the TTX the edge over them, but I haven't resprung or done much with the zokes yet either.

In saying that, they weren't cheap, service intervals are short, and parts (bushings!) are expensive. You'll also need a few specific tools to charge the N2 on them if servicing them yourself.

A 48mm KYB SSS conversion could probably be done for less, have a larger knowledge base, and be set up to work wonders.

 

[swazi_matt]

where are you based?

That sounds very much like my initial Sachs experience before i sent them off to TwoWheels for a revalve and they are now very decent - i then fitted racetech valves to the shock as they then became the weak point

There is no denying that the ttx are superior, it all depend on your budget

 

[n_green]

In short - No, you don't need to spend a fortune on Ohlins inserts.

See my thread here
And you can see that even a nufty like me who has NFI re suspension can get the Sachs forks - also off my '11 300 working pretty bloody well. Am I super duper happy with them? No, not yet, but the better they get the pickier I get, so compared to when they were stock I am over the moon with where they are now.
The hardest part about it is sourcing the 9mm and 7mm ID shims.

Having said that, you have already paid a tuner to fix them, and they haven't, so I'd be calling the tuner and telling them why you're still not happy about it and exactly what the issues are.

Prior to doing this though, ignore the tuners suggested clicker settings, as thats all they are, a suggestion. No valving will only work with a certain clicker setting, they are there to play with, so play with them.

Find a section of track with rocks and roots typical of your riding conditions etc and ride it as is at the moment. Then, wind the compression right off (soft) and hit it, take note of what it's like to ride with soft compression, then wind the compression right up (hard) and hit it again, again noting the characteristic of hard compression. Then repeat at 5 clicks out, 10 clicks out and 15 clicks out, noting when it starts improving and then again starts getting worse again. Say it was getting good at 10 clicks out but was worse again at 15 out, go to 10 clicks and then jump up 2 at a time. Repeat this process until you get to 2 or 3 settings you can't tell the difference between and pick one. Thats compression done.
Then do this process with rebound.

Then note the clicker settings and go for a ride, if you're still not happy with the suspension take note of exactly what it is doing and if varying the clickers helped and report back to your tuner. They should offer some sort of help, logistically sending the forks back and forth from Perth to Sydney isn't going to work, but hopefully something can be done. Maybe if you're handy on the tools and confident you can get better stacks from the tuner and install them yourself?

Apologies if the above is common sense to you and you've already done it.

 

[n_green]

Just a follow up, you're description of the forks not performing well on square edges sounds like the typical overly stiff Base Valve (BV) and crap Mid Valve (MV) - which is actually a check plate not a valve since the shims are more like washers. If this hasn't been changed then it is highly unlikely that any clicker changes will do a thing.

The good news is that once addressed the forks are good, I can confidently hit wet logs, roots and rocks at 45 degree angles and know the front will soak it up and roll over it, unlike the standard fork valving that would have instantly deflected and washed out.

 

[gasgasmick]

thanks for taking the time to reply guys.
Greeny, thanks for posting your shim stack profile, it will give me a base to go from. I prefer to do most of the bike wrenching myself, I'm a sparky by trade and happy to swing spanners too. The guys apparently installed new valves etc,today I removed 10mm of fork oil from each leg and tomorrow I'm going to have a play around with the settings. I rechecked my tire pressures which were at 11 psi and made sure the forks were aligned correctly and not too tight in the triple clamps. Hopefully I'll have some success otherwise I mite just strip them myself and have a play, can't be any worse than what they are now, the bike would be great for motocross as its firm all round, but not great for fast impacts.

 

[swazi_matt]

yep, what n-green said.

because it was so far to ship i went through the whole process, eventually able to tell steve exactly what the forks were doing wrong, probably made his job easier.

dropping oil level will not make a huge diff on deflections

 

[swazi_matt]

Something that had me thinking yesterday is, are the Beta sachs forks the same as the GG?
Reason i ask is that in SA they only have the sachs option and i know that for the Roof of Africa extreme enduro, the hemmingway brothers (Beta Extreme) came down and actually told the beta agent supplying them with bikes that they ride the forks stock standard with only clicker adjustments - i don't think this would apply to the sachs on the GG unless you riding a flatout race on smooth terrain without rocks or roots

Anyone know what the differences are, maybe possible to go to a beta dealer and put their internals into your forks

 

[n_green]

The Beta Sachs 48mm forks run a different smaller volume cartridge with the same diameter rod, also the valving is significantly different as you would expect. I believe the stock base valve is a two stage stack (the stack and ID of the cartridge and rod are listed in my thread somewhere), the piston ports are bigger however are split to flow oil differently and the MV uses standard size 8mm shims!!! I believe rebound and BV still use 7mm ID shims.
Reports over here in Aus are also positive for those forks, one tuner has mentioned apart from a MV tweak the valving is spot on.
I wonder how much those beta internals are though, probably close to ttx inserts

 

[swazi_matt]

OK, But if there is one thing i have learnt from riding my bike is that there is such a thing as money well spent, and suspension is one of those things. Every time i have a close call and am saved by improved suspension the cost becomes less to the point i feel that steve did it as a favour (and that is what i tell my wife!) ... plastics, stickers and bling on the other hand however ...

 

[gasgasmick]

well, I took 10mm of oil out of each fork leg and surprise there was no difference.
I methodically adjusted the compression and rebound writing down the results, but no setting would get rid of the harsh hit/deflection. It literally feels like riding into a gutter on a push bike with no front suspension?that solid jarring feeling.
I've sent the tuner an email so hopefully there will be some resolve, even if unfortunately I have to send them back. I want to feel confident with the front end and suspension .

 

[swazi_matt]

Mick you are repeating my own (and other's on the forum) experience with the Sachs. I believe it has more to do with getting the mid-valve corrected. And the deflection issue scars for quite a while. It took me a while to feel confident that the wheel would stay where i put it even if there is a rock there

Where are you based?

 

[n_green]

Yep based on that description I can pretty much guarantee that your mid valve is still stock or very close to it with a large float followed by a ridiculously stiff compression stack. What this does is allow the forks to dive/compress far too fast initially and then come to a screaming halt when the MV which is more like a check plate comes into play.

There is no other way to fix these forks the MV must be fixed.

Give it a month or so and I'll be getting stuck into my forks again, I was close to getting it 99.8% sorted and think I know how to get it to 100%. Ill trial it and report the change in my thread soon.

 

[gasgasmick]

Well, I sent my forks back to the tuner. I let him know exactly what was happening so hopefully they will be a lot better when I get them back.
i also let them know to check the mid valve and report back on the actual shim stack profile etc but maybe they don't want to give those details out.

Anyway, once they forks are back i'll report on the response. The rear shock was great, a little stiff but very progressive.

 

[n_green]

The tuner may be hesitant in giving out the shim stack which is understandable. It is their business after all. If they do tell you by all means compare it to mine, if it's different I wouldn't worry I'm a hack and know nothing about suspension tuning so fair chance my stack is not that good compared to the thousands of variations out there.
Whatever you do never post up a tuner supplied shim stack on a public forum.
Good to hear they are going to have another crack. I wish you luck and make sure you let us know how it all pans out.

 

[gasgasmick]

yep, totally agree greeny about not posting someone's "intellectual property" etc on a public forum unless permission is granted.
I'll give a full report once I get them back.

 

[papa_j]

I was considering a fork swap but then got my forks worked by a guy who used to live in Durango. He said the mid valve was so stiff it was working as a check valve. I wouldn't know a mid valve from a check valve but the forks are 100% better. The forks are now very plush. Obstacles I would have slowed down for I can now hit at full speed and barely feel them.