pscook
Platinum Level Site Supporter
It's a JD red needle. No other markings, just the red paint on the top of it. I have one myself. Jakobi can cover the other needles it is related to, but it's supposed be a touch leaner than the JD blue, FWIW.
50:1 Or 40:1, Hmmmm
- Thread starter bowhunter007
- Start date
It's a JD red needle. No other markings, just the red paint on the top of it. I have one myself. Jakobi can cover the other needles it is related to, but it's supposed be a touch leaner than the JD blue, FWIW.
bowhunter007
New member
The gentleman who did that teardown, recommended I contact JDJetting, so that could very well be the case. Either way, The son-in-law and I heading to Tahuya tomorrow, with another friend to give swimming lessons. I'm so close, now. The more I understand, the more questions I have. I do need to repack my silencer, as that probably has more to do with my spooge issue than jetting. I cannot stop riding this machine, it's like an extension of my body. It isn't necessarily making me faster, but ride longer, and tend to attack obstacles that I might have baulked at before. One thing is certain riding with the current suspended setup is a real confidence booster.
stevenorton
New member
Just come across this thread. To throw a spanner in the works, I use GRO fully synth at 100 to 1. I run an ec200 o5 model with 42 pilot,175 main and a 5 slide. Can't undo the needle carrier bolt as the previous owner mullered it, so can't tell what needle it is.
GRO is used in trials bikes at 100 to 1 around here. I stripped my ec to see what the squish was and clean the pv. 1.2mm squish and no damage to the piston skirt. Every thing looked good,
GRO is used in trials bikes at 100 to 1 around here. I stripped my ec to see what the squish was and clean the pv. 1.2mm squish and no damage to the piston skirt. Every thing looked good,
bowhunter007
New member
if you can find a replacement "bolt" to retain the needle...you should be able to simply chase the threads in the slide. I know that's easier said than done.
Well guys, here we go.....I'm with GMP for the most part. I only use full syn. at 28-32:1 My 300 is properly jetted and in 5K miles it runs like new. More oil, properly jetted, equals longer life and more power. I like Red Line and Amsoil Dominator but lately have used Mercury PWC full syn. Quicksilver, the TC, not the TC-W3!!!!
Here is a good article that is hard to argue with...except he may not be talking about engines with power valves. But I doubt that matters.....20:1 didn't clog mine
I never fouled a plug even at 20:1
http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm
Ed
Here is a good article that is hard to argue with...except he may not be talking about engines with power valves. But I doubt that matters.....20:1 didn't clog mine
I never fouled a plug even at 20:1
http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm
Ed
bowhunter007
New member
I've seen this article before, and it's a good read. I actually enjoy starting up this argument while out riding. It would seem, most everyone I come into contact with, have their own reasons for running a "chosen" premix oil at whatever mix ratio. Most have absolutely no idea why(including me). If I'm using a mix ratio of 40:1 and wish to fatten it up to 32:1...Do I need to change everything, quite a bit? I have a 40 pilot, for instance...Do I go up or down in size(I'd guess down, but I'm really not sure). Almost everyone I know with a 2-stroke, run their bikes at 50:1 or leaner. I'm all about less down time for repair work. If 32:1 is that much better, I'm in. I just don't have the years of experience under my belt. My XC250 was abused...really abused for 8 brutal years, without having the top-end apart, at all. It was run at 40:1. Granted, it was down on power, but only started really acting up, when the crank seal started leaking. I don't know...for now I'm in at 40:1, since it's working, and my machine is running great.
BH007, don't over think the jetting thing! Look at it this way, changing the main jet is easy, ditto the clip on needle. I have not had to mess with pilot jet at any ratio from 20:1 to 50:1. I did break the engine in with a couple tanks of Redline at 50:1. Following the manual and all..........then went right to 40:1...then went to 20 to one, then to 28:1 and have settled on 32:1 LOL.
Here's the thing to consider.....more oil in gas means a "leaner" fuel for engine. My 300 was always rich and as I increased oil it ran even better and plug looked even better. 20:1 was best but I was worried about the power valve gumming up. So I went to 28 and eventually 32:1. The bike ran better and my plug looked fine but was still a little rich!? So I bought a size bigger and smaller than stock. While the extra oil should have made the bike leaner, and it probably did it was the smaller jet (!?) that cleaned my plug up and greatly increased performance. The added benefit being that more oil is always better than less.
My point is.....mix some 32:1 and fill an empty tank. Replace the plug with a new one and go for a ride. Just ride like you normally do. Pull and examine plug. If it looks nice and tan you are good to go and more oil will prolong your bike. If it looks lean or rich, just change the main jet and or move the needle clip.
More oil equals longer life and more power when properly jetted.....the power comes from proper jetting and less friction. The jetting is easy.
In my case I would have benefited from leaner jetting before I ever messed with oil ratios....My bike was "rich" from the factory. Increasing oil made it even better, going down one jet size made it better yet. This is the opposite of what should have happened with regard to re-jetting. The plug told it all.
Obviously, if your bike is already on the lean side increasing oil will make it worse and you'll certainly think you've lost power! The plug will tell it all! Just don't assume "theory". In my case "theory" was backwards because my bike was so rich to start with! 5000 miles and counting, runs like a new one!
Hope this helps!
HD
Here's the thing to consider.....more oil in gas means a "leaner" fuel for engine. My 300 was always rich and as I increased oil it ran even better and plug looked even better. 20:1 was best but I was worried about the power valve gumming up. So I went to 28 and eventually 32:1. The bike ran better and my plug looked fine but was still a little rich!? So I bought a size bigger and smaller than stock. While the extra oil should have made the bike leaner, and it probably did it was the smaller jet (!?) that cleaned my plug up and greatly increased performance. The added benefit being that more oil is always better than less.
My point is.....mix some 32:1 and fill an empty tank. Replace the plug with a new one and go for a ride. Just ride like you normally do. Pull and examine plug. If it looks nice and tan you are good to go and more oil will prolong your bike. If it looks lean or rich, just change the main jet and or move the needle clip.
More oil equals longer life and more power when properly jetted.....the power comes from proper jetting and less friction. The jetting is easy.
In my case I would have benefited from leaner jetting before I ever messed with oil ratios....My bike was "rich" from the factory. Increasing oil made it even better, going down one jet size made it better yet. This is the opposite of what should have happened with regard to re-jetting. The plug told it all.
Obviously, if your bike is already on the lean side increasing oil will make it worse and you'll certainly think you've lost power! The plug will tell it all! Just don't assume "theory". In my case "theory" was backwards because my bike was so rich to start with! 5000 miles and counting, runs like a new one!
Hope this helps!
HD
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Houndog
You say the theory was backwards in your case? I don't see how. Your bike was rich. You added more oil (removed fuel / leaned it out) and then dropped a main jet (removed more fuel / leaned it further). Thats exactly whats expected.
However, changing oil ratios to achieve a perfect plug is backwards theory. Ideally you will set your oil ratio to achieve the level of lubrication you deem right, and then jet to achieve the engine characteristics and 'plug colour'.
The oil ratio is just another variable, as is the quality of the fuels you are using, if its oxygenated, if its humid or dry, hot or cold, high alt or low. With so many variables the easiest thing to do is simply pick a ratio and oil and use it the same way, all the time. Its one less variable to deal with then. The subject of which oil or ratio is best can go on for a long long time though. Thick oils, thin oils, high flash points, low flash points, gummy oils, clean burning, casters, semi syn, full syn, etc etc etc.
You won't hurt an engine with too much oil so running it at 20:1 isn't really a bad thing. I simply make sure that when I pull the engine down that theres a nice coating of oil on everything. I get that with 50:1
You say the theory was backwards in your case? I don't see how. Your bike was rich. You added more oil (removed fuel / leaned it out) and then dropped a main jet (removed more fuel / leaned it further). Thats exactly whats expected.
However, changing oil ratios to achieve a perfect plug is backwards theory. Ideally you will set your oil ratio to achieve the level of lubrication you deem right, and then jet to achieve the engine characteristics and 'plug colour'.
The oil ratio is just another variable, as is the quality of the fuels you are using, if its oxygenated, if its humid or dry, hot or cold, high alt or low. With so many variables the easiest thing to do is simply pick a ratio and oil and use it the same way, all the time. Its one less variable to deal with then. The subject of which oil or ratio is best can go on for a long long time though. Thick oils, thin oils, high flash points, low flash points, gummy oils, clean burning, casters, semi syn, full syn, etc etc etc.
You won't hurt an engine with too much oil so running it at 20:1 isn't really a bad thing. I simply make sure that when I pull the engine down that theres a nice coating of oil on everything. I get that with 50:1
noobi
New member
Having worked in a bike shop part time for a while now, I have explained rich/lean oil/fuel to people often enough, it amazes me how many people are playing with jetting and have no idea.
Thinking about your point above HD, obviously as you increase oil content, you make the mix leaner, but would you need to be cautious about lean seizing? Common sense tells me no, I imagine the engine would just run so poorly and foul plugs from being oil rich before it seized from being fuel lean.
Ok, here's a real redneck theory: Can you use regular 40 wt motor oil in a 2 stroke? Of course you can use it, but will it hurt anything? Here's what I know for sure, 2 brothers that used to regularly ride BJEC, (Blackjack enduros), did it in 90 model KDX 200s for a whole season with no problems. These dudes were old school as heck. I had a KDX then and we got on the same rows a few times, but I can't remember their names. Anyway, one year they both used Poulan 2 cycle oil for chainsaws. After the season they both tore down and checked top ends and everything looked good so they re-ringed and moved on. I think I remember one had a stuck powervalve, but not sure. One had some minor issue is all I remember for sure.
Next year they used regular old straight weight 40 wt motor oil for a car. Forget what brand but knowing them it was probably the cheapest. Again, did a tear down and just re-ringed. Several times when I was a poor dumb kid I ran out of 2 stroke oil on my Yamaha DT 80 and later on my DT 175 and used motor oil for a day or so with no apparent problems. No unusual plug fouling, no detectable motor issues. I just looked at my bottle of Kawasaki 2 stroke engine oil, it says it's 40 wt.
Someone is going to show industry tests which show that you have to use this or that. Look on ktmtalk in the engine oils threads and you will find debate far more involved and technical than any political debate. How a dumb layman like me can weed through any industry test to the real bottom line I don't know, but I do know that some manufacturers make sure published tests say what they want them to. I'm sure others are completely honest. To me the bottom line is in the actual real world giving-it-a-try! But I'm chicken! If it doesn't work, I want someone else to blow their top end and not me!
I know it works on older bikes. My two Yamahas were an 72 and 77, and the KDXs I mentioned were 90 models. I don't think 2 strokes have changed that much, but I'm no engineer, so I'm really just guessing that the basic design and function is about the same? Has anyone really tried this?
By the way, I have an industrial duty Echo trim chainsaw. It's an industrial model I got from my ex brother in law who is a pro tree trimmer, great little saw. Last week I only had enough 2 stroke oil for half a gas can of mixed gas and I used half 2 stroke oil and half motor oil. The saw ran fine on it for 3 tanks. Which has nothing to do with bikes really, but thought I'd mention it.
Next year they used regular old straight weight 40 wt motor oil for a car. Forget what brand but knowing them it was probably the cheapest. Again, did a tear down and just re-ringed. Several times when I was a poor dumb kid I ran out of 2 stroke oil on my Yamaha DT 80 and later on my DT 175 and used motor oil for a day or so with no apparent problems. No unusual plug fouling, no detectable motor issues. I just looked at my bottle of Kawasaki 2 stroke engine oil, it says it's 40 wt.
Someone is going to show industry tests which show that you have to use this or that. Look on ktmtalk in the engine oils threads and you will find debate far more involved and technical than any political debate. How a dumb layman like me can weed through any industry test to the real bottom line I don't know, but I do know that some manufacturers make sure published tests say what they want them to. I'm sure others are completely honest. To me the bottom line is in the actual real world giving-it-a-try! But I'm chicken! If it doesn't work, I want someone else to blow their top end and not me!
I know it works on older bikes. My two Yamahas were an 72 and 77, and the KDXs I mentioned were 90 models. I don't think 2 strokes have changed that much, but I'm no engineer, so I'm really just guessing that the basic design and function is about the same? Has anyone really tried this?
By the way, I have an industrial duty Echo trim chainsaw. It's an industrial model I got from my ex brother in law who is a pro tree trimmer, great little saw. Last week I only had enough 2 stroke oil for half a gas can of mixed gas and I used half 2 stroke oil and half motor oil. The saw ran fine on it for 3 tanks. Which has nothing to do with bikes really, but thought I'd mention it.
bowhunter007
New member
Wow! I think Jacobi was right, I opened a can of worms
That being said, I am not incline to change what is working for me right now, but it is very interesting to read/hear different opinions and/or therories. I'm am all about absorbing as much info as I can get, and considering the internet, thats a lot of info. Houndog, I DO over think the whole jetting issue...However, I haven't touched my carb since got it how I like it(2 tries w/pilot, 1 try w/main, 2 tries w/needles & finally settled on JDRed #3). I mull this crap over in my head daily, but that's just the tinkerer in me
If I truly thought that I could get more from my bike's engine, by changing things based on reading and/or hearing, I'd never get to ride(my bike would always be disassembled). That's NOT AN OPTION
That being said, I am not incline to change what is working for me right now, but it is very interesting to read/hear different opinions and/or therories. I'm am all about absorbing as much info as I can get, and considering the internet, thats a lot of info. Houndog, I DO over think the whole jetting issue...However, I haven't touched my carb since got it how I like it(2 tries w/pilot, 1 try w/main, 2 tries w/needles & finally settled on JDRed #3). I mull this crap over in my head daily, but that's just the tinkerer in me If I truly thought that I could get more from my bike's engine, by changing things based on reading and/or hearing, I'd never get to ride(my bike would always be disassembled). That's NOT AN OPTIONJakobi, I meant "backwards" because usually maybe they are not as rich as mine was. When I put more oil I was expecting to have to richen it up to make up for it ( I went from 40: to 20:1 ) It got better after more oil but I was still worried so I went up a jet size. Got worse, not what I expected. Then went down one past stock and it got a lot better. One more down and it did not get better and my plug was a little lighter than I like to see them so I went back up to one smaller than stock....can't remember the numbers and would have to go outside to find the bag of jets. I expected to have to increase gas as I increased oil but the opposite happened and the bike ran (runs) it's best ever. Plug looks "textbook perfect" at 32:1 now.
I did not mean to imply judging a plug by changing oil was the way to do it. I think you settle on a ratio and then adjust jetting and the plug will tell you rich or lean condition. I figure get the jetting right and the plug will look nice and tan regardless of oil ratio.
I've been riding 2 strokes since the early 70's. Always ran 20:1. Then "modern oils" came along and ratios changed for most.
I'd not know about taking them down.....have only had one 2 stroke in my life die and that was my CR....'97 and it had a zillion miles. Spit a big end bearing after 25 miles in tight woods in 100 degree heat.
Noobi, that is a good question and I suspect you are right. Problem is that my buddies who work at the Triumph dealership caution me otherwise. The owner and mechanic both own Gassers. The mechanic is more concerned about jetting than oil mixture ratio (he's at 32:1). Hell, he's so picky he'd have me re jet it from summer 100 degrees to winter when it's 40.
I think I said before "properly jetted" more oil has been shown to make more power and there is no doubt it offers more protection. Fouled plugs and gummed power valves being the only downside. I've never fouled a plug and my PV seems ok after 5000 miles.
I run ethanol free premium and check each batch for ethanol.
This subject always brings up many opinions.....
I don't race but I've put 1000's of miles on 2 strokes and I've watched my buddies rebuild their bikes many times and the one single thing they all had in common was lean oil mixtures. Golden Spectro at 50:1 (or 40:1) is (was) a great oil I'm told. Knew lots of guys that ran it at those ratios. They seemed to enjoy doing top ends.
Just my thoughts, ok....and they are worth exactly what I charge for them
HD
I did not mean to imply judging a plug by changing oil was the way to do it. I think you settle on a ratio and then adjust jetting and the plug will tell you rich or lean condition. I figure get the jetting right and the plug will look nice and tan regardless of oil ratio.
I've been riding 2 strokes since the early 70's. Always ran 20:1. Then "modern oils" came along and ratios changed for most.
I'd not know about taking them down.....have only had one 2 stroke in my life die and that was my CR....'97 and it had a zillion miles. Spit a big end bearing after 25 miles in tight woods in 100 degree heat.
Noobi, that is a good question and I suspect you are right. Problem is that my buddies who work at the Triumph dealership caution me otherwise. The owner and mechanic both own Gassers. The mechanic is more concerned about jetting than oil mixture ratio (he's at 32:1). Hell, he's so picky he'd have me re jet it from summer 100 degrees to winter when it's 40.
I think I said before "properly jetted" more oil has been shown to make more power and there is no doubt it offers more protection. Fouled plugs and gummed power valves being the only downside. I've never fouled a plug and my PV seems ok after 5000 miles.
I run ethanol free premium and check each batch for ethanol.
This subject always brings up many opinions.....
I don't race but I've put 1000's of miles on 2 strokes and I've watched my buddies rebuild their bikes many times and the one single thing they all had in common was lean oil mixtures. Golden Spectro at 50:1 (or 40:1) is (was) a great oil I'm told. Knew lots of guys that ran it at those ratios. They seemed to enjoy doing top ends.
Just my thoughts, ok....and they are worth exactly what I charge for them
HD
