Another KYB SSS Thread - 2013 EC250R

[(F5)]

Jake have you not revalved those S3 s yet? What the blue blazers is going on man?

 

[Jakobi]

Honestly, first service, there was some crud in the oil. Second same. I'm dreading my third oil change at 135ish hours. I wonder if it is even worth picking up a set of bushings. Regardless, I'm going to ride them totally into the ground but it would be nice to know there is a nifty backup.

I'm very curious about your thoughts regarding the change in trail. I love the bike's slow speed handling, but if it was a little more stable at speed without knifing excessively in gnar I'd be thrilled.

By crud you mean.. Sludge, alloy, dark oil? Its normal for the oil to break down and smell bad. Bit of sludge in the bottom isn't unheard of either. It was the alloy from the spring seat which I attribute to eating mine alive.

Honestly, the trail is a concern. While the theory dictates that a smaller offset (more trail) is more stable, the real world testing usually shows the bike to be better in the slow speed and tip in, but perhaps a little too active as the speed increases. Mostly knifing/over willing to continue turning when you want it to stand up. Think big drifts and how a well balanced bike will just settle and slide. Not enough trail and the bike will run wide, too much and it wants to tuck in. It also effects the weight on the front tyre and considering that I don't find the Gasser the kind of bike I really have to scoot right up the tank on often, it may be too much. Time will tell, and if its no good then I'm a bit shot for options. Stock Yamaha clamps for this fork are also 22mm offset same as the Gas Gas ones. I could go an earlier model and shim the upper clamps (or the e-axle).

I like the stock geometry of the Gas Gas, I think the 2012+ feels a bit more stable than the 2010. I never had issues with the 2010, so hoping I'll end up somewhere inbetween the two.

Jake have you not revalved those S3 s yet? What the blue blazers is going on man?

I was hoping you'd put the leg work in on this one Yours are ready for testing.. Mine not so much.

 

[Jakobi]

Rake angle measured approx 27 degrees which is same as (and in approx range of, give or take a few fractions of a degree) most other current bikes. YZ250 YZ250F CRF, and also the Beta 2T range uses a 27 degree rake frame.

In comparison, alot of the 4T bikes are running a 32mm offset lug and 20mm triple clamps. The Beta 2Ts run a 35mm offset lug and 20mm triples. The ECs use a 35mm offset lug and 22mm triples.

Glenn reported the -3mm offset to be too much on the Beta, however given that the Gasser starts off +2mm ahead of the Beta it may work out being an overall improvement.

Thinking about my comments earlier about how I never scoot up the seat on the bike, I do find myself riding on the pegs, head well over the bars quite a bit though. I'm definitely not stressing over the change yet.

 

[VxZeroKnots]

Sorry for being vague, dark oil with a hint of alloy. Though a fraction of what your picture showed.

I flushed it as best I could and the bushings didn't really show wear so maybe I'll be okay for a while.

 

[(F5)]

Pah! Me? I should be riding it today, but I'm unable to due to poor planning (and a bit of bad luck ). Either way I kinda know what I don't like but I'm harder pushed to know how to fix it. Something easier on my elbows than my 45s and to not be deflected off greasy tree roots and we'd be a good way there.

 

[Jakobi]

Pah! Me? I should be riding it today, but I'm unable to due to poor planning (and a bit of bad luck ). Either way I kinda know what I don't like but I'm harder pushed to know how to fix it. Something easier on my elbows than my 45s and to not be deflected off greasy tree roots and we'd be a good way there.

I'll let you know what I'm thinking after I put some time in checking things. The thing I'm sure of is that the stock YZ valving is going to be too firm for my purpose. But maybe not too much. I'll sus out the stock setup and then put a few suggestions forward.

Comparing a geometry a bit more, have also been looking at the wheel bases of the typical 2T enduro/mx ranges.

Ktm 1482mm
Beta 1480mm
Gas Gas 1480mm
YZ250 1480mm
YZ250F 1466mm

Not sure that the actual wheelbase will make any noticable difference, and in any case I have a new chain on hand and was planning to move the rear wheel back some to add some leverage to the shock and see if it would track better on snotty uphills. It may be that my front wheel moves in 3mm and my back wheel moves back the same.

Also, the measurements are simply what each brand specify so could be some variance in to what point the actually measure. Also depends where the rear wheel is set in the blocks. Each value really could be +/- 10mm.

 

[gasgasman]

I have the OEM YZ125 forks with stock valving and springs.
It's not that bad. I weigh 190 with gear.
I do bottom out on the MX track.

 

[Jakobi]

What year forks? Quick check would put stock springs at .42kg/mm and I imagine the 125 would probably be setup a touch lighter than the 250.

The forks I'm getting have come from a 250F. I would say a heavier bike, but people won't be able to help reminding me that there probably isn't much in it between the Yamaha and Gasser. They'll be valved for more weight on the front end though, and coming with .46kg/mm springs which should be OK.

I'm running .44s in the Marzocchi and .46 in my previous TTX equipped. Should be good if I can get some preload off them.

 

[nknudsen]

On my 08' 250F SSS forks I went from .46 springs back to the stock for that yr .44 springs. I do like the .44 springs better (190lbs) but I also stay off the MX track.

 

[swazi_matt]

Isn't it time you guys updated this post? Need a fix!

 

[gasser]

I changed my final gearing from 13/50 to 12/48 which moved my rear wheel back about half an inch and the difference on trashy hill climbs was noticeably better.

 

[lonetree]

i'll be watching this thread, as i still have those yzf triples and kyb hanging round.....

 

[Jakobi]

Still waiting.

I think I know where I'm going to go with them. Need to decide if I'll press new bearings into the gasser hub, or have spacers made up similar to the rear which sit in the inner race.

Really looking forward to replacing the Marzocchis. In the mean time I think I'm going to swap back to the TTX setup.

 

[(F5)]

As the spacer is 2mm thick that is quite a workable size for a steel tube.you could make it just under 28 and a tight fit 20 and press it onto the axle against the closed end and make it stop 1/2 way into the far spacer so the floating fully works.

That is if the closed end is 28 or bigger which surely it is.

Bugger that would have been much easier- and reversable.

 

[Jakobi]

Good idea F5. We'll bounce this idea more when I get to it.

Forks should be arriving next week some time.
I have an axle from an 04 WR250F at my disposal (including front wheel and spacer). I was thinking I may be able to transfer the whole lot across, but thinking things through I will meet issues as the WRs use a 25mm offset lug so the brake carrier will still be out.

Working off this, I've found a better list of various KYB SSS forks and their dimensions.

YZ250F (02-06) 35mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250F (07-11) 32mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250F (12+) 32mm lug / 54mm upper clamp (fits stock 48mm triples).

YZ450F (03-07) 35mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ450F (08-09) 32mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ450F (10+) 32mm lug / 54mm upper (fits stock 48mm triples).

YZ250 (01-07) 35mm lug / Believe all use 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250 (08+) 32mm lug / Believe all use 56mm upper clamp.

WR250F and WR450F (02-13) 35mm lug - unsure which years inc SSS vs OC. Believe all use the 56mm upper clamping diameter.

So from that list, depending on what you want to achieve and whats available will depend whats required.

I intend on using the Stock Gas Gas 22mm offset triple clamps with the 12 YZ250F forks. The reduction in overall offset will be -3mm. If using forks with the larger upper OD, using KYB 25mm triple clamps will retain the stock geometry/overall offset.

Also, as I plan on using the Gas Gas front wheel which has a 260mm disc vs the YZF 250mm I will require an oversize caliper carrier for the particular forks (lug offset) that I will be using. Braking POW106. I have ordered one of these.

For the forks with the 35mm lugs the correct carrier is POW13.

The ideal solution IMO would be to source a set with 35mm lug from a late model WRF and have the upper triple clamped machined - I'm taking a risk with the -3mm offset for the ease of fitment. If the reduced offset ends up being too much I will be somewhat limited in my options as these late model Yamahas they come off all use 20mm offset triple clamps. I could source some older triples and shim the upper clamp. In my research I have read that many people would however sub out the stock 25mm offfset clamps for 22/22.5mm on the YZ250's for better handling.. I have also found the head stem angle to be similar between the 2 bikes, and that most new bikes run a similar angle with less offset. Glenn found the increased trail to be too much on his Beta 2T, however they already come standard with a 20mm offset clamp. Both bikes use a 27 degree steering rake angle.

 

[(F5)]

I fitted some black polini fork guards for a YZ, but I didn't fit the std stickers that came with them. I took no measurements. Sorry.

 

[Jakobi]

So the new forks arrived today, and while I have been waiting I moved the Ohlins TTX/Sachs legs over onto the 2013 model to keep getting punished. The 2010 is sitting with clear triples waiting for some fitment.

Few pics of the forks. They are as described 'NEW'. Can still feel the stiction in the seals. No markings or wear visible other than where the axle and caliper were clamped. Good find and looking forward to moving on with the project.

From the research I have done, stock valving will be way too firm. I'll follow that up in the next post.

 

[swazi_matt]

nice, what did those set you back?

 

[(F5)]

My first ride is tomorrow on stock springs and shims.

 

[twowheels]

Good idea F5. We'll bounce this idea more when I get to it.

Forks should be arriving next week some time.
I have an axle from an 04 WR250F at my disposal (including front wheel and spacer). I was thinking I may be able to transfer the whole lot across, but thinking things through I will meet issues as the WRs use a 25mm offset lug so the brake carrier will still be out.

Working off this, I've found a better list of various KYB SSS forks and their dimensions.

YZ250F (02-06) 35mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250F (07-11) 32mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250F (12+) 32mm lug / 54mm upper clamp (fits stock 48mm triples).

YZ450F (03-07) 35mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ450F (08-09) 32mm lug / 56mm upper clamp.
YZ450F (10+) 32mm lug / 54mm upper (fits stock 48mm triples).

YZ250 (01-07) 35mm lug / Believe all use 56mm upper clamp.
YZ250 (08+) 32mm lug / Believe all use 56mm upper clamp.

WR250F and WR450F (02-13) 35mm lug - unsure which years inc SSS vs OC. Believe all use the 56mm upper clamping diameter.

So from that list, depending on what you want to achieve and whats available will depend whats required.

I intend on using the Stock Gas Gas 22mm offset triple clamps with the 12 YZ250F forks. The reduction in overall offset will be -3mm. If using forks with the larger upper OD, using KYB 25mm triple clamps will retain the stock geometry/overall offset.

Also, as I plan on using the Gas Gas front wheel which has a 260mm disc vs the YZF 250mm I will require an oversize caliper carrier for the particular forks (lug offset) that I will be using. Braking POW106. I have ordered one of these.

For the forks with the 35mm lugs the correct carrier is POW13.

The ideal solution IMO would be to source a set with 35mm lug from a late model WRF and have the upper triple clamped machined - I'm taking a risk with the -3mm offset for the ease of fitment. If the reduced offset ends up being too much I will be somewhat limited in my options as these late model Yamahas they come off all use 20mm offset triple clamps. I could source some older triples and shim the upper clamp. In my research I have read that many people would however sub out the stock 25mm offfset clamps for 22/22.5mm on the YZ250's for better handling.. I have also found the head stem angle to be similar between the 2 bikes, and that most new bikes run a similar angle with less offset. Glenn found the increased trail to be too much on his Beta 2T, however they already come standard with a 20mm offset clamp. Both bikes use a 27 degree steering rake angle.

I just finished machining a set of upper GasGas triples for SwaziMatt - there's enough meat there to do that.