Another wont start question

Q

Quicky1980

New member
I have the infamous 2002 400 FSE engine and have the dreaded wont start issue.

The bike came to me like it and Im in the process of trying to sort it.

I was told by the seller that the bike can be pushed started but I have been unable to confirm as I don't have any hills near me nor a suitably grippy floor to make a good enough run at.

I've left the battery on charge with my battery tender so I'm thinking the battery is to a suitable charge. Battery age and condition isn't clear but a receipt indicates it was changed early this year.

When I use the electric start the engine turns over and I can hear the engine compressing and sometimes get a misfire/back fire but no start. I smell fuel from the exhaust and hear the fuel pump priming so I think its injecting.

I've tried kick starting it a few times but again, no luck.

I'll try and get a video up to show the engine cranking on e start.

Any ideas? I've heard that valve clearance might be a root cause, another idea was an auto decomp valve?? Never heard of this valve so could do with a bit of guidance on what this is, likelyhood of failure and where it is (how is it to fix).

Thanks ahead.
 
Right, got the bike started today by using jump leads from a car battery. The bike eventually fired but it did take a while. Plus as it cranked the engine speed could be heard speeding up to almost the point of firing but then I hear a mechanical hit, almost sounds like the starter jams.

I took off the cover plate of the lhs and all looked ok, ie no broken gears, pinions and the sprag seems to be doing its thing. I couldnt do proper sprag clutch check as I couldnt get the part in front of it off.

Ill try a brand new battery to see if it resolves the issue but the mechanical jam/hit worries me. Any ideas?
 
hopefully just pre-detonation while trying to start with the weak battery. The fuel injection requires a very good battery (and connections) as the electronics need 12v to fire while the starter will still crank with a poor battery when less than 12v. A week battery (even with jumpers) could be letting the spark come and go to cause your issue.
 
thanks Jostby, I did see alot of search hits on here saying that these early efi's needed loads of voltage during cranking.

have ordered a new bosch battery, 507 902 011 I'm hoping this is the best/correct battery. At the price Ive just paid ?80 pre discount I would say this battery should have plenty of cca's!

Will hopefully put the battery on tonight and see if the mechanical sound goes and the starting issue is resolved. If its sorts it I'll leave feedback to allow for closure of this post.
 
Fitted the new battery and it now starts...just. There is still something not quite right as it can be a struggle to start.

I'll give the bike a proper service and check the valve clearances whilst im at it. thanks again for your input/help.
 
Right gave the bike a oil filter, air filter, spark filter change and still no improvement to the starting if anything its now harder

Timing clearance is as follows

Exhaust
0.25 0.3

Inlet
0.2 0.1(if anything, lower than 0.1 but couldnt measure)

Are these clearances within tolerence? Could they be causing the bad starting?

Im going to renew the starter this weekend hopefully but am unsure if I should go to the bother of rehimming.

Only had the bike a short time and already its getting really frustrating.
 
Quicky1980 said:
Right gave the bike a oil filter, air filter, spark filter change and still no improvement to the starting if anything its now harder

Timing clearance is as follows

Exhaust
0.25 0.3

Inlet
0.2 0.1(if anything, lower than 0.1 but couldnt measure)

Are these clearances within tolerence? Could they be causing the bad starting?

Im going to renew the starter this weekend hopefully but am unsure if I should go to the bother of rehimming.

Only had the bike a short time and already its getting really frustrating.
Click to expand...

I have the precise same problem as you, any updates?
 
we all have this problem, is it possible to update the CDI to something less spark hungry ?
I'm looking into carbing options as i've had it with this problem child but it would be nice to find a solution so I could at least sell the bugger !
 
Somewhere back a couple of years ago I did mention on this site that the DRZ manual cam chain tensioner will work on the GG 450. Not sure about the current price but usually the Thumper Talk store has them for about the mid $40 freight paid.
I have one on one of my GGs(the one that has a hard time with the morning start but always starts trouble free for the rest of the day). On my other GG I use a Cam chain tensioner from one of my DRZs.

Tony
 
Well its quite interesting actually, the bike will start if the mcct is really louse, the tighter you get it the harder it is to start. I still think the starter/battery must be under powered because the bike will only start with the tensioner completely slack or so it seems, not quite sure how tight it should be but its miles further out than the auto tensioner.
 
MY starter went out today. I'm going to get it rebuilt in NH.


I bet yours is weak.

I took mine apart
Not only was it worn in the brushes quite a lot
It looks like moisture got to it also

Being that my bike was almost new when I got it
I think it is a bad design.

I will reply if it is fixable

I have heard that a Suzuki starter
will fit. I let the experts decide.
 
I also broke the kick start lever trying to start it.
Kinda disappointed in this today.
Always started, but in retrospect, it always seemed to labor very hard when it turned over.
 
olderandyzer said:
I also broke the kick start lever trying to start it.
Kinda disappointed in this today.
Always started, but in retrospect, it always seemed to labor very hard when it turned over.
Click to expand...


Broke your Kickstarter, Huh.

Mine are bent but not broken yet. I'm an avid runner and I noticed that my right leg lately has felt a little odd after running. I knew what it was right away.

The jarring from the kickstarter hitting the footpeg was not only bending the kickstarter lever it was also jarring the bones and tendons in my right leg.

Stopped trying to kickstart the GG and the pain went away after about a week.

Lesson learned.

Tony
 
The bike has a lot of small quirks.

I think when my 2014 YZ 450 gets here next winter, I am going to take my 2010 YZ 450 practice bike and Dual Sport it with a plate and signals. I should have done this in the beginning, but liked the idea of this Gas Gas. Yes , in PA I can do this. I have done 4 CRF 450 R bikes in the past.

You just can't get parts for the bike ( the Gas Gas) and it is quirky, but I don't want to be stranded 70 miles from home on back road. I might reconsider this bike, as many seem to have problems with it.
 
cal_tony said:
Broke your Kickstarter, Huh.

Mine are bent but not broken yet. I'm an avid runner and I noticed that my right leg lately has felt a little odd after running. I knew what it was right away.

The jarring from the kickstarter hitting the footpeg was not only bending the kickstarter lever it was also jarring the bones and tendons in my right leg.

Stopped trying to kickstart the GG and the pain went away after about a week.

Lesson learned.

Tony
Click to expand...

I've raced bikes for 37 years. I could start the bike, but it was hard.
I wear Sidi Croosire boots, so they are really stout. Never hurts my foot, but I can kick pretty hard. If you ever rode CZ or Maico bikes, than you know what hard is then. LOL

Link to the page about my starter and kickstarter.
http://gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14839
 
I took my starter apart and cleaned it up. Rust inside. Water damage. Now it starts great again.

All I did was clean u the commutator and clean up the brushes so they would move in and out. Problem solved
 
Awesome news for you fella ! definitely going to have a go with mine, could be a cheap fix :)

any tips on taking it apart or is it fairly obvious ?
 
Took mine apart, seemed in good condition, cleaned it up on the contact points, even got a new battery but its still the same pathetic turn over. Starts first time of a powerful running car battery though....... lost will to live ..... :confused:
 
Being as your bike is an early FSE400, it may have an incorrect (too small) "bump" on the auto-decompressor's "activator pin".
The first FSE400 I had worked flawlessly, but my second FSE400 had a similar problem as yours. One can fix it by welding a bit more metal on the decompressor part to make it release a bit more compression, but it is an exacting process.
There was a bulletin on this that circulated in 2003. I may have a copy somewhere. The job was too exacting for my skills.
I eventually fixed the problem by installing an updated "late 2004" exhaust cam, which let off the correct amount of compression to make starting much easier.

I also installed an updated starter gear assembly (gear between the starter and the starter clutch on the flywheel) after destroying the original starter clutch with a backfire. The updated parts gave some "flex" when the engine backfired, and also changed the ratio a bit to help the starter. I have the parts list somewhere, and may have posted it here before. By late 2004, this was a non-issue, as the bikes all had the new exhaust cam.

On the early FSE engines, the starter was in front of the cylinder, and very low. Because of this, the starter often got a bath during a ride. I took the rubber plub out of the starter housing and sealed it with QuickSteel (now J&B Weld) putty. I was happy when I saw that the starter had been relocated for 2005.

I also had a starting issue, caused by the throttle position sensor, which was fixed when I reset the Throttle Position Sensor with the motorbike diagnostic program.

Good luck with your bike. I made some KTM 4-stroke riders feel bad as I passed them on the FSE400. The harder I pushed it, the better it performed; particularly in the tight woods.

Good Riding!
Jim

.
 
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