Diameter of the straight part of the needle.

[Selvagem]

Hello everybody.

I am currently using a needle NEDF pilot with Jet # 52.

I feel a little lean condition, test run your famous video Slavens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVzqqpgviyI&list=UUerGVI2Oain-k_QfSBn1zbw

In my case, this lean condition is not as exaggerated as in this video is actually very subtle.

Could someone show me a needle OEM Triple Taper with the diameter of the straight part of the richer that the F tual I'm using? I love the way the needles Suzuki NE work, I can not imagine using two needles taper again.

Remembering my carburetor is AS1, and the Brazilian fuel is very different from that used in the rest of the world, contains much alcohol, causing the need for a richer hit.

PWK AS1
NEDF # 3
AS: 1 turn from closed.

Thanks in advance.

 

[celler]

Cut and Paste,


MrBlah's got it right. JDs does a pretty good job, however is missing some of the newer needles which is a bummer..

I have kind of worked out a break down of the OEM Needle codes.
N-X-Y-Z (N3EJ) (NEDW) (NOZI) (N1EF)

N - OEM Needle identifier
X - Taper profile
Y - Clip position/length
Z - Diameter

The X/Y doesn't seem to share any common ground between needles. 3 seems to be yamahas 2 taper needle. E is suzi's 3 taper, O is ktms 3 taper, 1 is the stock GG needle also a 3 taper. I'm not sure if the tapers are the same between the NOZ/N1E. They do feel very similar. The Y part which indicates clip pos/length is also paired up with the taper profile (x) to form a needle with the same properties that allows for half clip adjustments. Exmaples N3Ex/N3Cx, NEDx/NECx. I have a feeling NOZx/N1Ex is the exception and are half clip different using the same taper.

Z is the needle diameter of the straight section of the needle. It covers idle to 1/8-1/4 depending on the needles taper profile. Sizes range from:

Nxxx needle diameters
D=2.685mm
E=2.695mm (JD Blue)
F=2.705mm
G= 2.715
H= 2.725
W/I=2.735 (JD Red)
J= 2.745
K=2.755

 

[Selvagem]

Thanks for the table.

As I understand it, my problem carburetion (which is the the same video) is solved with a needle with the richest, straight part correct? I'm already using a # 52 pilot jet, I imagine already be relatively generous, right?

I had not thought about buying one JD kit almost U $ 80.00 (for the table would be the richest after the next needle diameter F that I am using) to take advantage of only a needle, I have over 15 different needles and prefer to test several until you find one that looks perfect.

I wonder what OEM needle diameter D or E could buy, since I'm already using the needle Suzuki NE richer.


The needles NOZ E, NOZ D used in the KTM exhibit the same characteristics of NE Suzi? Ie first poor taper, and enriching for WOT?

Very grateful.

 

[Jakobi]

NEDE - E diameter is one step richer.

 

[Selvagem]

NEDE - E diameter is one step richer.

Thanks Jakoby.

Do you have the part number of this needle?

 

[Jakobi]

Don't know if they actually made them that rich or not. Would have to check with a dealer or do some research.

 

[Selvagem]

Don't know if they actually made them that rich or not. Would have to check with a dealer or do some research.

Think that this needle does not exist.

In the parts list for the Suzuki RM 250 2007, the richest needle is NEDF.

This is why I asked about other needle richer than F.

Jacoby Any suggestions?

 

[Jakobi]

The NOZ/N1E needles are pretty similar in the 2nd and 3rd tapers, but the first taper is much richer. They are generally too rich for most, but may work ok for your purposes as your current setup is already quite rich.

 

[FastFast]

If I read that chart right does it show the NEDW and JD Red having about the same diameter?

 

[Selvagem]

The NOZ/N1E needles are pretty similar in the 2nd and 3rd tapers, but the first taper is much richer. They are generally too rich for most, but may work ok for your purposes as your current setup is already quite rich.

I have the needle N1EF saved. The problem with this needle, in my view, is that the straight part is very short. The straight part of the needle is virtually ignored, already working in the conical part. The length of the straight part of the needle NOZ is as short as the N1EF?

 

[Jakobi]

Very true Selvagem. Not disagreeing at all. The NOZx is just the half clip variance of the N1Ex from what I have been able to tell. Have you tried a dual taper N3??

Correct Fastfast. The diameter of the red is around a W/H in OEM codes. The tapers are a bit different though. Particularly the last one with JD vs a Suzuki. JD is very thick and needs a large main in comparison.

 

[MJC]

Kawasaki's N3xx triple taper series needles have a slightly leaner first taper than Suzuki's NExx series needles, but tapes 2 & 3 are identical. An N3Wx needle is 1/2 clip position richer the a N3Yx needle. This is your best option at getting a needle that is similar to the Suzuki's NExx needle with a richer starting diameter.
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Kawasaki/Motorcycle/2000/KX250-L2+KX250/CARBURETOR/parts.html You would be able to start off with the same pilot and main that you would using the Suzuki needle.

 

[Selvagem]

Thank you very much.

I ordered one and N3WD N3WE needle. When receiving, put my impressions.

 

[Selvagem]

Very true Selvagem. Not disagreeing at all. The NOZx is just the half clip variance of the N1Ex from what I have been able to tell. Have you tried a dual taper N3??

Correct Fastfast. The diameter of the red is around a W/H in OEM codes. The tapers are a bit different though. Particularly the last one with JD vs a Suzuki. JD is very thick and needs a large main in comparison.

The only needle I tested two cones was N8RH (KTM). I found a very aggressive response when the 2nd taper operated, the response was instant, very strong. Very nice and cool for a circuit race but inadequate, in my opinion, for a technical track, where the needles are 3 cones to me insuperable.

 

[Jakobi]

Once again agree. I have one engine setup with an N3 dual taper and and another with an NE 3 taper.

I haven't tried the suggested kawi needles, but based on what MJC posted they would be your best bet.

 

[Selvagem]

Hello Guys

Received N3WD needle, the N3WE still waiting for her.

Temperatures here in my region of Brazil are not already so low, we are now in temperatures of + - 20?C and thus do not feel the need for a richer needle because my bike no longer has any hint of poor carburetion.

The question I ask is:

Worth trying to use a richer needle diameter in the straight part, for with it using a smaller pilot jet?

What would be more accurate:

A richer diameter of the needle in a straight associated with a lower pilot jet, or vice versa, a less rich needle in diameter of the straight part pilot jet associated with increased?

Currently, I NEDF needle with a # 52 pilot jet.

 

[Leo]

Selvagem, isn't your main jet too learn?
My pilot jet is 45 oem needle and de bike runs greath. (Same gasoline with alcool)

 

[Selvagem]

You use the OEM needle, that is why a Jet # 45 pilot is enough, beyond what your Keihin carburetor must be a AS2, you need poorest settings compared to AS1.

Needles NE Suzuki, are poorer in straight part, which brings the requirement to use a larger pilot jet, put the straight part is longer, which brings many benefits compared to N1EF.

My Main Jet is # 175, and this range use my engine is perfect (just like the rest, now that ambient temperatures are higher).

 

[Selvagem]

Hello Guys

Received N3WD needle, the N3WE still waiting for her.

Temperatures here in my region of Brazil are not already so low, we are now in temperatures of + - 20?C and thus do not feel the need for a richer needle because my bike no longer has any hint of poor carburetion.

The question I ask is:

Worth trying to use a richer needle diameter in the straight part, for with it using a smaller pilot jet?

What would be more accurate:

A richer diameter of the needle in a straight associated with a lower pilot jet, or vice versa, a less rich needle in diameter of the straight part pilot jet associated with increased?

Currently, I NEDF needle with a # 52 pilot jet.

No idea?

 

[Selvagem]

Well, yesterday I had some concrete conclusions (at least for me, in my case).

We spring, temperature around 25?C ~ 30?C, air humidity around 30%.

My bike was using the NECF # 3 and # 52. Very rich needle for these conditions.
Kept the same needle in the same position and installed a # 48. Air screw at 1.5 turns.

PERFECT!

Stable idle, no hesitation to fully rotate the throttle from idle.

For testing purposes, I kept the # 48 and installed the NECG needle. It did not work .... showed hesitation when turning the throttle fully, even closing the air screw to 1 turn. After that, I changed the # 48 for # 50 and # 52, and got resolvar the problem of hesitation, but was unable to as stable idle with the NECF needle and # 48.

Definitely, in my case, the best combination is a needle in the richest part straight associated to a jet pilot lower than otherwise.