Frustrated (Please Help)

[ducncover]

I am at a loss. I bought an 2001 EC 250 a few months ago and it has not run well at all. (previous thread http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1912)

Initial symptoms were:
1. Horrible bog off the bottom
2. Only came up on pipe at WOT after feathering the clutch a lot.
3. Smoking uncontrollably
4. Fouling plugs

I checked the jetting and found a 172 Main. 38 Pilot and Stock needle. It seemed to be really rich off the bottom. I also noticed that I was oil fouling the plug.

Repairs/Adjustments made.

1. LTR Needle in middle clip
2. Replaced Right Side crankcase seal
3. Cleaned the Carb
4. Checked float level
5. Replaced Reeds with Boyesen Carbon Fiber reeds
6. Repacked silencer
7. New plug(s)
8. New Air Filter

The bike still does not run well. After all of these repairs, I tool the bike out and it still seems to be running poorly. The symptoms were the same. (example: from a dead stop, 1st gear start, I roll on the throttle and the bike seems to four stroke. Kind of like pulling the choke when the bike is already warm. If I feather the clutch wile holding WOT the bike pulls like crazy and will loft the front end through 4th gear). This leads me to think that it might be rich off of the pilot, but a 38 seems small already.)

Update"

I went to start the bike yesterday for a pre-ride warm-up and it fould a plug immediately. I am thinking that the power valve may be stuck open. Does anyone else have any ideas? Could this be an electrical issue? Please help!

 

[JoshP]

If you have a shop near you see if they can test out your CDI box. I had a very similar issue with my bike where it would run but really crappy and then slowly barely wanted to run at all. Checked everything thinking it was jetting, compression, topend, etc.. and in the end I burrowed a same year CDI box and it ran instantly like nothing had happened. Someone else on the board had the same thing and their local shop was able to test it for them. - Good Luck with it.

 

[thumpercb]

try this

jet size sounds ok..drain the tranny oil and put in some 80 or 90 gear oil;
the thick stuff...wal mart stuff..this will not hurt your engine but if your wet side seal is leaking you will know by the horrible smell when this stuff burns..no mistake..i had one come into the shop and the case gasket <center>was
leaking into the back of the crank area..same symptoms and we had replaced all the seals first ....and couldnt isolate it..usually if the power valve is open the bike is loud ..even at a idle..got a lean dry sound.

 

[thumpercb]

case drain

Look Twords Front Of Engine And See If There Is A Crank Drain Just Like The Tranny Drain ..all My Gg,s Have Had This/use In Case Of Emergency,when We Go Swimming:d :d
Pull And See If There Is Just A Bunch Of Build Up From Prev Owner Pulling Behind Truck Or Something ...but Prob Gonna Be A Leak From Tranny Into Crank Area Though..

 

[GMP]

Check all the electrical connections, then the coil and plug cap. The HV wire threads into the coil on a self taping stud that makes contact with the center conductor. Unscrew the wire, cut it back a few mm, and thread it back in, seal with RTV. Do the same with the cap. My '03 became a hard starter and this fixed it immediately.

The PV is easy to check. Remove the right side PV cover and run the bike. The actuator should move from stop to stop when the bike is reved high from idle. Make sure your pipe is clean and free of debris. This sounds crazy but my buddy DNFd an enduro this year on a KTM300 from the stinger of his pipe being partially clogged. After doing everything including swaping CDIs we found a plug of RTV debris from the header seal and oil, it formed a sticky web that made the bike barely run and foul the plug. If the previous owner left a rag or paper towel in your pipe that would do it.

If you still have an issue after all this I'd suspect the coil, stator, or CDI. What condition is your stator in? Corrosion? Pull the flywheel and stator and inspect/clean everything up. You may have to find some parts to swap like Josh suggested.

 

[MattR]

Your description reminds me of the trouble that Mike (username = Silver) had with my old bike. After chasing everything, it turned out to be the CDI. See if you can borrow one from a dealer temporarily to verify this option.

 

[BIG TOOL]

Did we all forget to mention the float height? If it's wrong, you'll never get it to run properly... and try to run it with the silencer removed, it's an easy way to verify that you don't have any issues with the silencer...

 

[kim]

I had the silencer internal perforated tube break and I nearly pulled the engine to bits. I just tried to start it with no exhaust at all and took it for a run. BTW it rips off the bottom wickedly with no front chamber on

Similar symptoms as described above

K

 

[ducncover]

Update

Got home today and pulled the pipe and silencer off. No visible obstructions. All electrical connections look good. Installed the LTR 180 main and 45 pilot. The float was checked by my local dealer. Not too sure what the specs are supposed to be. Cleaned the PV with Power Tune spray. Reassembled everything and ran the bike for awhile in the local woods. It still runs like garbage every where except WOT at high RPM's. Looked at the plug when I got back and it is tan. No residue at all. Jetting and A/F seems spot on.

I am going to ask my dealer to borrow a CDI tomorrow. I am so damn confused right now! I have never had this much trouble getting a bike to run properly.

What about timimg? Could this be a timing issue?

 

[GMP]

Snap a photo of your stator position.

Can you trust your dealer's work on the carb? The float being way off would do it, as would the chock circuit being stuck open.

I just got another 2K-2 ignition. Later this week when I have time I'll take some coil resistance measurements and post them for referance.

 

[Silver]

If you have a timing light tape it to your bars if it is electrical the timing light will cut out .If the timing light flashes like normal not electrical.This is how i determined my problem was electrical.If it is elec. then you have to figure out what part is bad.My cdi on my 2001 was bad.Go fasters actually sent me all the elec. parts and I tired coil first then cdi and found the issue (cdi)and sent back the unused parts for a full refund.Sure did save me a lot of chasing my tail.My bike ran poor on top end but after changing cdi I realized that I had lost power all the way through the power band.Mike

 

[ducncover]

Update

UPDATE

Swapped out CDI today with a known good. It did not help at all. Ran the bike wide open and noticed that initial WOT was bogging. When I reported that it was running great at WOT, I guess I was generalizing WOT after acheiving high RPMs.

What makes me say this is: I got home after a few disappointing laps and said to myself, "why does it sound so good when I rev it while the bike is stationary?" Well I never rev it wide open while stationary (like those squids bouncing their GSXRs of the rev limiter ).

So I decided to open it up WOT on the stand. BOOOOOOOGGGGGOGGGG! WTF? It never wanted to come up on the pipe. Pulled plug and it is black and sooty but not wet.

Maybe my main is too large? I was running a 172 and am now running LTRs 180. I might try to drop to a 168/166 to see if it goes away.

Please correct my pattern of thinking if you see that I am way off. I am kinda like a short fat kid in a fight right now and feel like I am swinging with my eyes closed.

Scenario: I start the bike. After it is warm I roll out of the driveway in first gear with about 1/4 throttle. I keep twisting the throttle to about half and it's still okay. Now I roll it WOT and BOOOOGGGGG. Shift to second and BOOOGOGG. Finally I continue to feather the clutch to get the RPM's up and it responds crisply. Shift to third and the scenario continues.. BOG, feather clutch, crisp respond.

Seems like the transition from the needle to the main is my issue. Does this make any sense to somebody other than me?

Known Good:
1.) Filter
2.) Pipe
3.) Float
4.) Needle
5.) Pilot (Slow) Jet
6.) CDI
7.) Reeds
8.) Right Side crankcase seal
9.) Plug
10.) 50/1 (Premium Fuel/ Castor)

Unknown
1.) Main Jet
2.) Power Valve ( I cleaned it with Power Tune, but never verified it operation while running)
3.) Coil

 

[cladoo]

I'd check the PV.

 

[BIG TOOL]

Wow, that sucks! I was thinking that maybe the carb vents were plugged or mis-routed, but I think that with all you have done so far, you would have found that by now... You might have a leaking case gasket, and that would allow your transmission oil to get into the cylinder. But... that's a pretty unlikely scenario, unless someone has had the engine apart and cases split. It might be worth it for you to get the cases pressure checked at a shop near you. If nothing else, its good for your peace of mind.
And for what its worth...check the float height for yourself, and if you can swap carbs with whoever let you use the CDI, that might be worth a try as well.

Best of Luck!

 

[stay_upright]

Check the PV opens and closes properly - sounds like you can pull the PV cover - rev the bike at idle and watch the movement.
Pull the fuel supply to the carb - check plenty of fuel can run through into a container or something just to check plenty of fuel can get into the carb even though it sounds like it's rich the symptons may appear because of misfire.
Have you looked at the spark pushing the kickstarter around with hour hand and hold the connected plug against the engine casing to earth it - does the spark look strong, consistent? What is your plug gap? Have you got the right plug!?
Do a compression test - a meter should be about £15 / $15 and you can use it in future to check the condition of your rings - you should get at least 150PSI when kicking as a guide.
I would double check the float height as this could cause it to run rich - a quick check if the bike is tipped over (to the left normally) no fuel should come out the carb drain hoses unless it is tipped past 20 or 30 degrees say - bikes with the float height too high (too rich) often dribble fuel out the carb when on the sidestand.
To see if it is a rich / lean thing does having the choke on make it worse or better?
Idle the bike, warm it up and turn off your fuel tap. Now keep testing it (revving it) does the response get better or worse as the fuel in the float bowl is used (bike is getting leaner)
My 300 uses a very small pilot to run clean at sea level in the UK maybe around a 35 - smaller than my ktm 200 had. Where is your air screw set - try adjusting that out (leaner at idle / small throttle openings) to see if it improves things.
Post your results on here I'm sure all that info will help greatly.
Can you borrow another carb off someone to swap as a quick test to eliminate that?

 

[ducncover]

Idle the bike, warm it up and turn off your fuel tap. Now keep testing it (revving it) does the response get better or worse as the fuel in the float bowl is used (bike is getting leaner)

The bike runs perfectly as the fuel in the bowl lessens. I think the float is screwed up. I don't necessarily think that I need to run a leaner setup, but rather make sure the float is set properly. Any specs on the float?

The bad thing is that my dealer says he's checked the float three times now, but has no specs for it.

 

[PEB]

Sounds like your dealer is a tool, I have found they are mostly good at making deals(with some noteable exceptions) Do a search or someone will chime in on the proper way to set the float.

Paul B

 

[Skidad]

In my KTM manual they say to adjust the float height for the PWK carb by tilting the carb body upside down to a 60 deree angle. The bottom of the floats should be parallel to the bottom of the carb body WITHOUT compressing the the little pin of the float needle. You bend the tab of the float to adjust this. I set it just a little on the lower side but that's just me.

Here is a link to the Kehin site to show you what they suggest.

http://www.keihin-us.com/tune1.htm

Do you have a new float needle? Put one in as they are cheap and carefully inspect the float seat area. As said before the bike should not start spewing fuel out the vent lines until tiped over a good bit. Try just putting some long test vent lines on that you can just let hang out the sides and see how far you have to tip the bike before it starts leaking out. Adjust float as needed.

Check you compression for sure also.


Skidad in MA

 

[RBD]

16 mm

Ron

 

[ducncover]

Thanks a lot fellas. I will pull the carb off tomorrow and reset the float. The mechanic at the shop said the spring may be worn and offered to bring me one. I will replace the needle and spring. I was very excited when the bike ran perfect for a few minutes after turning off the petcock valve. I saw the light at the end of the tunnel.

I almost gave up this past weekend and used the bike as a boat anchor