Harsh suspension EC300 R 2012

[MYBOARDSNOTFLAT]

Hi
Have been doing some enduros lately ( tight rooty technical) and have my fork and rear shock set pretty much as soft as they'll go but still bike is harsh.
Had fork seals and oils done and has made no difference , I let a few of my mates ride it the other night over tight rooty terrain and they all said it's the worst to ride of the 4 bikes we were swapping between.
They were all on KTM and one other Gasser.
I have a big enduro coming up soon and need this sorted or going to get rid!
Any ideas on what to try / where to go next???

 

[desertgasser300]

Hi
Have been doing some enduros lately ( tight rooty technical) and have my fork and rear shock set pretty much as soft as they'll go but still bike is harsh.
Had fork seals and oils done and has made no difference , I let a few of my mates ride it the other night over tight rooty terrain and they all said it's the worst to ride of the 4 bikes we were swapping between.
They were all on KTM and one other Gasser.
I have a big enduro coming up soon and need this sorted or going to get rid!
Any ideas on what to try / where to go next???

If you haven't had your suspension done having a good tuner get inside the suspension is one of the best things you could have done to a bike. I bought my bike from TwoWheels@ plus one performance and he had already tuned the forks and I have never had to do anything to them but change oil and adjust the clickers dependent on where I was riding.

 

[MYBOARDSNOTFLAT]

By the way I have not much idea about setting the clickers but my compression on forks and shock are out as soft as can go but haven't really messed with rebound , advice would be appreciated
As to what sort of rebound for bumpy tree roots technical
Have just ordered lighter spring and fork springs to try.

 

[CACTUSREID]

dont go soft on the springs to try and fix your problem, they are not the problem. the springs hold you and the bike up in the stroke,so choose the right ones for your weight. bigger springs are not harsher,in fact the opposite. a stronger (dont call them stiffer because they are not) spring with very little preload on it will give you a great plush ride,and you will be able to use all the suspension travel that your bike came with. a weaker spring collapses under your weight so you are half way through the travel as soon as you get on the bike. not good! winding up the preload on the front and or the rear to get proper sag settings just makes a soft spring harsh and choppy. i'm 195 lbs before being geared up,and i run .46 fork springs,and a .56 on the rear of my 11 ec300. my bike is smooth and plush, and never beats me up in the rocks. as others have said, and i agree, get a revalve,at least on the forks for your skill level and the type of terrain you ride.

 

[CACTUSREID]

my board, your rebound and compression settings work together with everything else in your suspension, compression clickers restrict the flow of oil passing through the system as you crank them firmer, the rebound setting controls how fast the spring is allowed to explode it's energy outwards in length after being compressed when you hit an obstacle. learning about your suspension and how it works will be one of the biggest single improvements, you will ever do to your riding enjoyment on any bike!

 

[Jim Cook]

dont go soft on the springs to try and fix your problem, they are not the problem. the springs hold you and the bike up in the stroke,so choose the right ones for your weight. bigger springs are not harsher,in fact the opposite. a stronger (dont call them stiffer because they are not) spring with very little preload on it will give you a great plush ride,and you will be able to use all the suspension travel that your bike came with. a weaker spring collapses under your weight so you are half way through the travel as soon as you get on the bike. not good! winding up the preload on the front and or the rear to get proper sag settings just makes a soft spring harsh and choppy. i'm 195 lbs before being geared up,and i run .46 fork springs,and a .56 on the rear of my 11 ec300. my bike is smooth and plush, and never beats me up in the rocks. as others have said, and i agree, get a revalve,at least on the forks for your skill level and the type of terrain you ride.

This is excellent advice from CactusReid. Pay attention to it.
Proper springs for your weight will keep your bike's suspension up in the softer damping of your suspension's valving stack (which gets stiffer as it goes lower).

Other than that; for tight choppy, rooted, rocky woods trails (not huge landings off big air jumps or extremely fast speeds), you will want your rebound just tight enough to keep the bike from bouncing repeatedly as you ride. (You want it to take an impact, and then resume it's proper attitude without bouncing your posterior back up into the air.)

Your compression damping needs to be soft enough to let your wheels do the reaction and keep it from transferring that action to the chassis (and kicking you side to side).

Without a revalve, one thing you can try with the forks is to replace the fork oil with 2.5w or 3w rear shock fluid. This will allow you to have softer action with your current fork valving.

Keep in mind two things:
1. Nothing beats a good custom revalve done for you and your riding conditions by a competent tuner who is familiar with your suspension components and bike.
2. The above advice is meant for tight woods rough rocky rooted trails. (especially the rocky part).

Good Riding and Wrenching to You!
Jim


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[Jacob 'Berg]

Other than that; for tight choppy, rooted, rocky woods trails (not huge landings off big air jumps or extremely fast speeds), you will want your rebound just tight enough to keep the bike from bouncing repeatedly as you ride. (You want it to take an impact, and then resume it's proper attitude without bouncing your posterior back up into the air.)




.

+1
Rebound adjustment can be counter intuitive at times. Some, when getting a bouncy or pogo effect, assume that the bike does not have enough rebound damping and that the forks or shock are rebounding to quickly causing the "bouncing".

This can actually be caused by packing, where the fork/shock is still in the middle of the stroke when it takes the next hit, causing it to bounce/deflect/feel harsh. The suspension needs to return to the top of the stroke quickly enough for it absorb the next impact. So, often backing out the rebound damping can help a great deal.

 

[Jakobi]

This is excellent advice from CactusReid. Pay attention to it.

Proper springs for your weight will keep your bike's suspension up in the softer damping of your suspension's valving stack (which gets stiffer as it goes lower).

Without a revalve, one thing you can try with the forks is to replace the fork oil with 2.5w or 3w rear shock fluid. This will allow you to have softer action with your current fork valving.

The valving doesn't actually have anything to do with where you are in the stroke. Its speed sensitive, not positon sensitive. However, if a bike is undersprung it either sits too far in the stroke leaving less travel to work with which is not as plush, and usually then people add preload to get it up in the stroke which can also add initial harshness. They then think the issue is with things being too firm so open the clickers, or go to a lighter spring which is the opposite direction you want to be going.

If you have a damping issue with compression, a lighter oil will flow better and make it sofer, but it will also effect the rebound in the same manner. ie flow better, and things move quicker/less rebound damping. The 48mm CC Zokes lack rebound control to start with.

 

[MYBOARDSNOTFLAT]

+1
Rebound adjustment can be counter intuitive at times. Some, when getting a bouncy or pogo effect, assume that the bike does not have enough rebound damping and that the forks or shock are rebounding to quickly causing the "bouncing".

This can actually be caused by packing, where the fork/shock is still in the middle of the stroke when it takes the next hit, causing it to bounce/deflect/feel harsh. The suspension needs to return to the top of the stroke quickly enough for it absorb the next impact. So, often backing out the rebound damping can help a great deal.

Do you mean put in more surely then as your saying asume it doesnt have enough rebound but then your also saying back out the rebound??????
its getting more confusing.

 

[MYBOARDSNOTFLAT]

Thanks for advise

dont go soft on the springs to try and fix your problem, they are not the problem. the springs hold you and the bike up in the stroke,so choose the right ones for your weight. bigger springs are not harsher,in fact the opposite. a stronger (dont call them stiffer because they are not) spring with very little preload on it will give you a great plush ride,and you will be able to use all the suspension travel that your bike came with. a weaker spring collapses under your weight so you are half way through the travel as soon as you get on the bike. not good! winding up the preload on the front and or the rear to get proper sag settings just makes a soft spring harsh and choppy. i'm 195 lbs before being geared up,and i run .46 fork springs,and a .56 on the rear of my 11 ec300. my bike is smooth and plush, and never beats me up in the rocks. as others have said, and i agree, get a revalve,at least on the forks for your skill level and the type of terrain you ride.

I am going lighter in a sense that mine are standard 80-90 kg springs , i have a suspension company order me the ones to suit my 70kg (naked) weight.

 

[MYBOARDSNOTFLAT]

Thanks Guys

Still confused if not more now , i have ordered lighter springs but only ones to suit my weight surely this wont make it worse!
Also some people are saying more some less rebound???????
to slow my forks coming up and cause less of a bounce do i screw my rebound in or out / add more or less i am presuming you screw it in thus causing more restriction and therefor a slower return?
Help my heads going to explode!!!!
(i would sens it to a specialist but on the island where i live i would have to travel and have already spent alot this year on other bits )
Thanks again

 

[Jacob 'Berg]

Do you mean put in more surely then as your saying asume it doesnt have enough rebound but then your also saying back out the rebound??????
its getting more confusing.

Decreasing the rebound damping will increase the speed that the suspension returns to the top of the stroke. Increasing the rebound damping will slow down the speed of the return, meaning that the suspension MAY still be lower in the stroke when it attempts to absorb the next hit.

You can push down on the seat of the bike and note the speed with which the shock returns to the top of the stroke. Back out the rebound adjustment and load the shock again and you can see the speed of the return increase.

This may not apply to your set up, but packing is often over looked and I have seen quite a few cases where people have continued to keep adding rebound damping making the issue worse. After they reduced the damping five or six clicks the packing and harshness started to abate. There is a fine line between too much and too little rebound as noted in a previous post.

 

[Jim Cook]

Do you mean put in more surely then as your saying asume it doesnt have enough rebound but then your also saying back out the rebound??????
its getting more confusing.

Jacob 'Berg was essentially agreeing with me, in that you only want enough rebound damping to keep the bike from bouncing and wallowing during a "hit". He basically said that if you have too much rebound damping dialed in, the suspension will not be able to extend all the way back out before you take the next bump. (too much rebound causing "packing" of the suspension.

From me:
In addition, if (in the choppy and rocky tight woods) your wheels are bouncing side to side too much instead of tracking straight as it bounces down the trail, I feel that the problem is usually too much compression damping. (This goes especially for the rear.)
I normally only adjust clickers two clicks at a time when fine tuning the damping.

I have found that the Race Tech web site's spring recommendation chart works very well. I usually take their chart's recommendation for a person's weight in street clothes and "round down" to the next available spring rate.
Give it a shot: http://racetech.com/VehicleSearch

To qualify what I was saying earlier about "position sensitive damping": Some of the older bikes with the Marzocchi 45mm and 50mm conventional, and WP 50mm conventional (not inverted) forks were actually valved to be position sensitive.
I'm not up to date on the newer 48mm inverted Marzocchi forks.
Also, I had a trusted tuner customize the valving on the 45mm Marzocchi Shiver forks on my two latest primary GG bikes. He did a great job, and I left it completely up to him. (I really like the results of his mods, but don't personally know anything more about the valving than what it takes to service the forks, and how to fine tune the forks by adjusting the fork oil level and viscosity.)



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[Jakobi]

This is the best 'how to' I've come across yet in terms of a methodical approach with explainations. http://www.off-road.gr/article11.html

As others have stated, packing can occur if you slow down the rebound (close the clicker/CW) to the extent that it doesn't extend again in time for the next impact. Its very unlikely that you are experiencing this with the Marzocchis due to the high bleed and light rebound stack they come with stock.

The stock spring should be fine for 70kgs nude. At 75kgs I actually went up to .46 springs on the front, and found it an improvement. The stock springs were good, the replacements are better.

With this particular fork there seems to be a huge variation in the amount of preload on the ICS spring (internal cartridge), which will effect the pressures and initial stroke in a big way. I have seen them with both negative and positive preload, and to me is the biggest issue with these. It means I can't compare my valve stack and PFP position to someone elses until its been confirmed they are the same rate and length.

Remember as a spring compresses it holds more energy. A soft spring will compress further with a given weight on it which may put it down further into its stroke where it meets more resistance sooner. Preloading the spring increases the force/weight required to set the spring in motion, so a stiffer spring with less preload can actually be softer or more plush, with better bottoming resistance than a preloaded light spring. The valving controls the 'rate' at which the suspension components move.

 

[MYBOARDSNOTFLAT]

Thanks for all the info