Hypothetical Q - KTM or Gas Gas+$1500

[Jeffro]

Alright guys, I am having winter blues and its not even officially winter yet.. depressing. On the bright side it gives me time to think.

So I've been thinking of getting a new bike in Spring or early summer, most likely a 250 2t. I have always wanted to try a Gas Gas but I get a really great bro deal on KTM bikes. It amounts to about $1500 difference when I bought my 2006 KTM. My decision was helped then because my local GG dealer couldn't even get me a 250 2t due to problems at GG Spain or the importer(?).. so it was kind of a no-brainer then.

I have read quite a few posts here and I think this is a good place to ask since you guys don't seem to be pursuaded by powerful marketing schemes (bleed orange.. blah blah)

My question to you guys - if you were looking at a new bike (2008 or 2009) considering the GG will cost me more and the KTM 2t.. will the performance benefits of the Gas Gas make up for the $1500 additional cost?

by the way, I don't race. mostly just aggressive singletrack trail riding with my friends.

thanks!

 

[GMP]

Do you really think we'd say save $1500 and get the KTM?

Seriously, many of us are ex KTM owners and would never go back. You will spend half the difference in an attempt to get the KTM suspension close to where the GG is stock, and it still will not be as good. I've personally ridden an '06 KTM. Not for me. Do a search, read the reviews. An excellent post by pobit who went from KTM to '06 GG to '08 KTM, and is not impressed. I could go on and on but only you can really answer that question, try and get a ride on one.

The '07 GG is a great motorcycle that was hurt by a bad situation. I suspect that is cleared up now.

 

[Jeffro]

good feedback.. I was hoping to hear from people who have ridden these bikes back to back. I don't know anybody that has a gg 250.. and you guys seem less partial to brands than the usual ktm people.

I didn't think about it that way but you're right - I can expect to spend $500 or so to get the ktm suspension right.. there goes some of the effective savings..

 

[SpeedyManiac]

It's a tough call. My buddy has an 06 KTM300XC, and now that the suspension is dialed he loves it. Up here it costs about $600 for getting the suspension done.

Here's my take. Yes, the GasGas is superior, but there really isn't a bad bike made these days. $1500 can go a long way if you're on a tight budget.

So, weigh it out. How much is $1500 worth to you?

 

[bondo]

Can't resist putting in my two cents on this one.
I've been riding KTM 250 2-strokes since the mid-'80's and bought my first 4t, an '06 400 EXC, about a year ago and it is without question the best turning, most nimble KTM I've ever owned. I've also spent some time on a buddy's '07 300 XC-W (imagine a playful 400 minus about 30 lbs.).
Several months ago, my son got an '05 GG EC 200 (our first Gas Gas).
We ride mostly tight single track.
A couple of things I've noticed about the Gas Gas (we swap bikes occasionally -
mostly 'cause I like to try his from time to time). First, the Gas Gas is light and flickable like the '07 KTM 2t, but it will turn circles around the orange bikes.
With the KTM, I choose my line through a corner and stay with it. If I have to change lines mid-corner, it can be thrilling. The Gas Gas by comparison, is happy to change lines any time, any place, regardless of the terrain. Also, the
GG feels more planted everywhere than my 400 (and the 400 feels more planted than my previous bikes). The Gas Gas brakes are about equal to the KTM's. The clutch pull on the GG is one finger, period. Also, the Gearbox on the Gas Gas is very smooth and doesn't give the rider the noticeable "click" from gear to gear that the KTM tranny does(so smooth I sometimes am not sure I've made the upshift until I release the clutch).

I can't speak to the suspension issues, because I'm about 190 lbs (no gear) and my son is about 145, so his bike rides low in the stroke with me on it. However, it tracks and follows the terrain just fine, even set-up for a rider almost 50 lbs. lighter than me.

You didn't mention how tall you are. As you know the KTM is very roomy and comfortable for tall riders, the GG is definitely a little more cramped for me (6'2"), although with the bar mounts moved all the way forward, a taller seat,
and a little trick to lower the footpegs 15mm (something about reversing the pins or springs) that I saw on this site, the Gas Gas would certainly be roomier.

As far as quality of components, both bikes are pretty equal.
As far as ease of maintenance, there are some things I prefer about the KTM and some I like better about the Gas Gas.

if you can, you should definitely try and ride a Gas Gas, back to back with your KTM, if possible.

In summary, even though I love my orange 400 and expect to keep it, the next
woods bike I buy will almost certainly be a Gas Gas 2-stroke.

 

[MattR]

Well, I will chime in too...

As my signature shows, I currently have a KTM 200EXC, but not for long since I'm coming back to a GasGas DE250 (I hope!). First of all, I will not bash KTM bikes. My 200EXC was a fantastic bike to ride. It was such a blast to ride on tight single track. However, KTM's definitely take more suspension setup tweaking to get it just right. Luckily, the previous owner made the bigger investment with MX-Tech revalving... it was a just a matter of knob adjustments and sag settings for me. Even still, my GG XC250 was still more plush. Also, the power characteristics need more tweaking on the KTM's by setting the power valve spring and/or G2 throttle. It's not a bad thing, but just not a smooth as GasGas. Again, just some minor differences between both brands... no major show-stoppers.

Here is my biggest complaint about KTM... it's the company, not the bike! KTM has knowingly ignored the 1/4 turn gas cap issues for 2 years. It wasn't until several folks (including me) got the consumer products safety commission involved in order for KTM to get their hand slapped in North America.
Read here for more:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07194.html

So, did KTM do the right thing and make a "global recall" like they should have??? NOPE! They only did it here, since we forced them. Next, a pro racer in Australia got burned by his KTM during a race when it spilled fuel all over him and ignited. Again, does KTM do the right thing??? NOPE! Australia then forces as recall on them. Now, only our two countries are the ones holding KTM responsible for an unsafe design. Of course folks will say, the "locking" 1/4 turn cap is standard on '08 bikes. It is still total crap and they should only issue the threaded tanks again. For me, KTM as a company has some serious moral issues. So, I will not spend any more money on their products. Get them were it hurts most... with money. Oops, I apologize for too much ranting here... it's just a touchy subject for me.

Back to bike talk now...
Here is something else to consider. In '08 ,the XC/XCW's got the same frames as the '07 SX's. While this may seem like a good thing weight-wise, you will have to wait awhile for items such as IMS or Clarke larger tanks (they don't exist yet). Another downside is that you are limited on retrofit parts. The '04 to '07 parts may not fit in many common areas. Again, this is due to the adoption of the SX frame. A very nice benefit of KTM was the "used parts" being sold everyday on KTMTalk. Without multiple-year retrofits, you are forced to buy new '08 OEM parts. Just something to consider...

 

[widebear]

From a purely objective viewpoint. If your the type of guy that wants three years out of a bike ,get the gasser ,its built tough ,besides that only works out to $500 per year extra premium which will be more than offset by the gassers premium constuction and fewer maintainence requirments . Now If your the type of guy who changes his bikes like people change their underwear get the katoom, way less depreciation.

 

[rajah]

I agree with widebear , apparently gas gas has low resale value but i think that is because gas gas are under estimated and a little un known bikes and dont get the credit they deserve. Every mag test I read states about how good they are , how well they turn and handle and the grunty usuable power( I agree with them). I have an ec300 fantastic bike I love it. People tend to stay with brands they know but most dont even give the others a try, enter Gas Gas. I get asked by people who dont know much about bikes say, "what sort of bike is that" "is it made in china", what an insult. Its obvious when they look at the bike they dont see the standard Ohlins shock, marzochi forks , hebo bars etc, all top quality gear. But people who know , they know the Gasser is good, but maybe they are afraid to stand out from the crowd. I have raced and owned lots of bikes over the years and have owned orange. But when I kicked over the gasser for the first time I was hooked, when I popped the front wheel up in the air in 3rd gear I had a grin a mile wide, never going back. But in the end its up to the individual want bike they want. I couldent find a thing on the net for my Ktm( ie specifications) but I have found so much info on the gasser, from workshop manuals to tuning specs also this site which is fantastic.I think over the next few years we will see more gassers flying around race tracks and trails alike. If in doubt give the gasser a test ride Im sure you will be impressed as I was.

 

[barkeater]

With all the .02 being thrown in here, you'll have that $1500 in no time!

Here's mine. I've been on a few KTM's and didn't like the ergos, I owned a 2005 Husaberg, which is really just a Super KTM, and liked it better (suspension is far superior to KTM), but not as much as my Gas Gas. I went back to my 2003 200 full time. It's just, well, a cozy bike to ride.

If you're not a serious racer and you just want a bike for weekend singletrack, look into the 200. She's mellow, but got enough snort to get you through most anything and a teensy bit lighter. You might like the extra "oomph" from the 250, but for a weekend toy for the guy who's serious - but not serious enough to ride for points - the 200 is the ticket.

That said, you won't regret any of them, the 200, 250 or even the big huggable Grizzly bear, the 300. Just give some time to any test ride you take. You'll come to understand why the Gassers "feel" different from other bikes - and it's a good thing - but it takes a little saddle time to comprehend.

The biggest downside to owning a Gasser besides resale, is all the tools you need for the multitude of fastners on the bike when you're doing maintenance. 6mm, 10mm, 8mm, hex, phillips, allen... The upside - you very seldom need those tools on the side of the trail.

 

[GMP]

Here is my biggest complaint about KTM... it's the company, not the bike!

Thats for sure!

Even long before the gas cap mess, I found this true dealing with their customer service.

 

[Jeffro]

By the way, I am 5'10" so I don't think ergonomics are going to be an issue for me either way..

You guys have given me a lot of good information and reasons for not taking a bargain. I already knew that GG 2Ts are excellent. That wasn't in question otherwise I wouldn't even consider gg for any $$..

The one thing that really stood out for me is the ktm gas cap issue that Mattr referenced. To me that's kind of a show-stopper - at any cost. Accidents happen but if I knowingly bought a bike with a history of catching the rider on fire I don't think I would be very comfortable riding it. There are too many other good choices out there. Why add any risk?

Thanks for helping to put this in perspective for me..

 

[MattR]

The one thing that really stood out for me is the ktm gas cap issue that Mattr referenced. To me that's kind of a show-stopper - at any cost. Accidents happen but if I knowingly bought a bike with a history of catching the rider on fire I don't think I would be very comfortable riding it. There are too many other good choices out there. Why add any risk?

You may need to join KTMTalk to view this forum, but here is the main Gas Cap Issue sub-forum. There is so much discussion about this issue that you will get sick of reading it.

http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showforum=158

With the new locking gas cap, only time will tell if this proceeds to be a problem. KTM has made a marginal effort to bandaid this issue. A good company would have completely changed the design to eliminate all opportunities for failure. The funniest thing is that the 1/4 turn cap was marketed as a quick-refill cap for racing. Now, the locking version takes two hands and lots of effort to get off.

I'm not trying to spread bad publicity about KTM. I'm only trying to inform you of a still potential issue. The bad thing is with '08 bikes, there is no tank replacement option unless the aftermarket companies release one soon.

 

[Jeffro]

You may need to join KTMTalk to view this forum, but here is the main Gas Cap Issue sub-forum. There is so much discussion about this issue that you will get sick of reading it.

http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showforum=158

With the new locking gas cap, only time will tell if this proceeds to be a problem. KTM has made a marginal effort to bandaid this issue. A good company would have completely changed the design to eliminate all opportunities for failure. The funniest thing is that the 1/4 turn cap was marketed as a quick-refill cap for racing. Now, the locking version takes two hands and lots of effort to get off.

I'm not trying to spread bad publicity about KTM. I'm only trying to inform you of a still potential issue. The bad thing is with '08 bikes, there is no tank replacement option unless the aftermarket companies release one soon.

my rub on that situation is that a recall by KTM would be an admission of sorts... which is typically not how KTM operates (or any other German/Austrian company??)

 

[GMP]

my rub on that situation is that a recall by KTM would be an admission of sorts... which is typically not how KTM operates (or any other German/Austrian company??)

Thats why PDS is still here.

 

[roostafish]

I have owned two KTMs, and now three Gas Gas. I have had a 125, and a 250 EXC KTM, and a 200ec, 250 XC, and currently 300 EC Gasser. I have had great pleasure on this forum. The people here are great, it is very good support, and I've never seen such a great bunch. It's also really fun to show up at a race, or a riding area and see another GG rider. Instant buddy.

I think KTM makes a great product. My brother in law just got an '08 300 XCW. The electric starter is a bit overkill, but hey, I'll bet it sells a few more bikes for those who can't figure out how to kickstart the easiest bike in the world to start.

As good as the Katoom is, the Gas Gas is better for me, both in action, and in support.

 

[mackmack]

i've owned 20 KTM's and now the only bike i own is a GG 300..

For me the GG 300 is a perfect bike, The stock suspension feels great on trails for 175-215lbs riders..

I weight closer to 300 so have spent about $700 on suspension mods but now they are perfect.

It's GG for me from now on i'll be looking into a new 08 depending on the dollar/euro situation..

If i have to pay $7000 for a GG 2 stoke i'll just go back and buy a ktm 300 Estart for that kinda money.

 

[Metalefty]

I agree with widebear , apparently gas gas has low resale value but i think that is because gas gas are under estimated and a little un known bikes and dont get the credit they deserve. Every mag test I read states about how good they are , how well they turn and handle and the grunty usuable power( I agree with them). I have an ec300 fantastic bike I love it. People tend to stay with brands they know but most dont even give the others a try, enter Gas Gas. I get asked by people who dont know much about bikes say, "what sort of bike is that" "is it made in china", what an insult. Its obvious when they look at the bike they dont see the standard Ohlins shock, marzochi forks , hebo bars etc, all top quality gear. But people who know , they know the Gasser is good, but maybe they are afraid to stand out from the crowd. I have raced and owned lots of bikes over the years and have owned orange. But when I kicked over the gasser for the first time I was hooked, when I popped the front wheel up in the air in 3rd gear I had a grin a mile wide, never going back. But in the end its up to the individual want bike they want. I couldent find a thing on the net for my Ktm( ie specifications) but I have found so much info on the gasser, from workshop manuals to tuning specs also this site which is fantastic.I think over the next few years we will see more gassers flying around race tracks and trails alike. If in doubt give the gasser a test ride Im sure you will be impressed as I was.

Great post, but there all great posts. I like reading the honest explanations good and bad. You definitely don't see blind brand loyalty from GG riders, most of them are coming from other bikes so they really know what there talking about. Most KTM riders aren't coming from a GG or have even ridden one, so how do they know they are on the best bike for them? But then again, maybe they don't care, maybe it was the cheapest bike for them. How many KTM riders are coming from GG and because of performance and reliability aren't going back to GG? Not many. Just reading forums on several different sites over the years you can see the ratio of riders that go to GG from another brand is more than the ratio coming from GG to another brand.
It's refreshing to read honest opinions instead of the typical "Suzuki is best because RC is winning everything" or "KTM is best because DK is winning everything and the offroad races are a see of orange."
When I buy a new bike in the future I will always keep my options open but for me, everytime I try a buddies other brand bike I find myself leaning towards the GG.

 

[Link]

" How many KTM riders are coming from GG and because of performance and reliability aren't going back to GG? Not many."


Wow.....thats a thought.......... The total may be Zero ? Guys switch from GG to KTM but not for those 2 reasons

 

[roostafish]

Stay with me here

I switched to Gas Gas from a Husqvarna, because I had a Gas Gas dealer right here in my town who was motivated to get me on one.
At the time I was on a 125 WR, and putting the hurt on all the new KTM 200's, and he figured we could help each other. Him by giving me an extra 75cc's, and me helping him by winning on his bike, hopefully selling some for him. It sort of worked out, but I'm sure not like he hoped. I think he thought he would sell a million of them, but you still have to get people to ride it to believe it. I always have people ride my bike, offering it to anyone who seems even remotely interested.

The moral of this story is..... If people actually ride the bike, AND if they're in the market to buy, AND they are confident they can get parts.. Then, and only then will they be willing to buy. Unfortunately for my local dealer, I'd send people in to him, and even knowing that people were leary of the "new" Gas Gas, he wanted to sell the bikes at full retail, no discount, all the while, you could go down the street and buy a KTM for $1000 less because the KTM dealer was dealing to get people on his bikes. I think it really takes a dealer who wants the bikes out there, even if it means he makes no profit on the bikes. I'm sure my dealer was trying to bridge the gap that he lost while giving me a bike, but that should be a consideration too.

I hope that wasn't too far off topic, but it really is a story of KTM VS. GG, which one? For many, it's fear of the unknown versus the much loved (by magazines), and highly visible KTM.