KTM and Bajaj

[Clay]

At what point does a European Company become an Asian Company?
This is from Motocross Action website:

Bajaj, India's second-largest motorcycle manufacturer, has bought another 6.3% of KTM, according to the Economic Times. That gives Baja a little over 47% of KTM stock. It was an open market transaction, which means that Bajaj bought the shares from the key stake holders.

KTM president Stefan Pierer and Rudolf Knuenz hold more than a 51% stake in the company. Rajiv Bajaj said, ?We do not want to be the majority stakeholder as to convey the perception of exclusivity and premiumness." Even as the market for motorcycles in Europe and USA shrank by 5%, KTM successfully managed to increase sales by 13.4%. In 2011 KTM produced 81,200 bikes. Bajaj made 11,000 out of 81,000 bikes that KTM sold in 2011. During the first two months of 2012, KTM edged past BMW as the largest selling brand in Europe.

Not intending this as criticism of either company. Simply a discussion point about your perception of European and Asian motorcycle companies.
Clay

 

[blitz11]

Bajaj made 11,000 out of 81,000 bikes that KTM sold in 2011.

In my eyes, that makes it still a pretty strong European brand.

You have to give KTM credit if they've displaced BMW from being the largest selling brand in Europe. They're doing something right.

If the Chinese collectively own 51% of GM stock, but have no strong presence on its board of directors, does that make GM an Asian company? Whether a company is Asian, European, or U.S. really depends on the management of that company, and how it is run. Harley Davidson has high foreign content, but to many, nothing is more "American" than H-D.

 

[Clay]

Bajaj made 11,000 out of 81,000 bikes that KTM sold in 2011.

In my eyes, that makes it still a pretty strong European brand.

You have to give KTM credit if they've displaced BMW from being the largest selling brand in Europe. They're doing something right.

If the Chinese collectively own 51% of GM stock, but have no strong presence on its board of directors, does that make GM an Asian company? Whether a company is Asian, European, or U.S. really depends on the management of that company, and how it is run. Harley Davidson has high foreign content, but to many, nothing is more "American" than H-D.

Those are all good points. Ownership prolly doesn't matter as much as location of production and the quality of the product and the orange company definitely produces a quality product.

 

[Mazikeen]

Being in the automotive industry for 27 years I've seen alot, I no longer even consider manufacturers in this fashion. I do understand the consumers perception of this, however, it is now a world economy and parts are sourced and assembled, machines are just not built anymore, merely assembled and often with parts that are sourced even from a manufacturers competition, as that component is built at a better price point by a company owned by another company that markets itself as whatever the genius marketing group knows will attract the American consumer.

marketing will always convince people to buy this or that but the point of origin is becoming more and more irrelevant on a yearly basis and I see it becoming mute within a decade.

I appreciate the GasGas line and the KTM line personally because they took the evo template from the mid 80's and did it over "their" way, creating and useful combination of parts ending in a machine that is unique in its implementation of a common design and creating a "peronality". KTM has leveaged that IMO to become what it is, they have stayed ahead on the development side eclipsing IMO the "asian" manufacturers. If not for GasGas, I would certainly have chosen a KTM as the "jap" big 3 have no offering to competed on the segment of riding I enjoy.

 

[Cruiser]

Actually to make a comparison of KTM and BMW is kind of erie.. BMW is what every bike manufacture wanted to be.. the owners were on the bmw kool aide from birth and would never sway.. that is until BMW started building bikes in China.. The loyal BMW owners are taking this as if they were kicked squarely in the balls.. some have sold their prized antique bmw's(I have seen them sold and bought) and they have moved to KTM and trump and the like.. KTM is now on the same path.. when more production moves to india you will see less people stay with that brand.. no reason to pay top dollar for a bike that both the R&D and production is in india by people who do not have the passion.. They are on the BMW path.. and it will not be pretty.. Its not the same as cars being made everywhere.. most car buys only see the bottom line.. they do not drive the car cause they want to.. or race it.. its just a cage to most..

 

[GMP]

+1, I won't even consider Indian or Chinese bearings much less an entire motorcycle.

 

[Vindicator]

+1 . for the moment I think it's only the 125cc engine of the Duke. If they do the same for other engines they will have a tough time to keep the corporate identity in the long term.

 

[Nhuskys]

With the Euro Zone financial crisis in general and Spanish economic situation specificallly..... I wouldn't be suprised if an Asian company, eventually becomes invovled with Gas Gas.

 

[Clay]

+1 . for the moment I think it's only the 125cc engine of the Duke. If they do the same for other engines they will have a tough time to keep the corporate identity in the long term.

My understanding from a friend who works at KTM is that the entire 125 Duke is made in India and then shipped to KTM where it is dyno and qc tested, then shipped to dealers.

 

[Clay]

With the Euro Zone financial crisis in general and Spanish economic situation specificallly..... I wouldn't be suprised if an Asian company, eventually becomes invovled with Gas Gas.

It is my understanding that the Spanish government puts a lot of pressure on the Spanish companies to use as many suppliers in Spain as possible.

 

[blitz11]

Ever since I saw the first 4T 250F motors in a GG frame, and then the Yamaha YZ450F "dressed" as a GG, I have suspected that Yamaha has a financial interest in GG. No proof, but I am just saying. Who funded the development of the new bikes?

10 years ago, everyone made fun of Korean cars. If you look at who is kicking butt now in the automotive arena, it is the Koreans. Who has killed Sony? Samsung.

India and China might be low quality now, but that doesn't mean that they can't become high quality in the future. It depends on where they see the revenue.

BTW, I ride old (1971 and 1978) BMWs, not just because they are BMWs (I did buy them for those reasons, but that was 30 years ago), but because i can't find a modern street bike that does it for me. My buddy spend $23K on a Ducati Multi-strada, and the thing toasted its tranny at 500 miles. My $1500 BMWs (at the time) have never left me stranded.

Part of it is the roll of the dice. Maybe I've just been lucky.

 

[GMP]

Same could be said for the Japaneese even before that, but they came in with a good, cheap product in basically an open market. Hyuandis are excellent cars, my wife's Sante Fe went 120K on just routine brake replacements, much better than its replacement Nissan Pathfinder and certainly better than any domestic we have had. Bikes are different though and the market is different, while Hyuandi is good the Korean Hyosung(sp?) is not doing nearly as well.

Ducatis are money pits. I loved mine and it was trouble free, but when its time to buy parts its just absurd. I rode mine a lot and racked up the miles so I was facing this reality. Thats the main reason I sold it, and why you see a lot of Ducatis for sale before the warranty is up. I'd love to have another big motard bike like that for sure, it fit me perfect and did everything I needed well. Just something more affordable over the long haul.

The other thing with new street bikes is they run so lean and hot stock that you are forced to do something about it with mapping, exhaust, etc. This heat is what will contribute to a lot of issues. Its more of a hassle than setting up a new dirt bike.

 

[bukwheat]

Ever since I saw the first 4T 250F motors in a GG frame, and then the Yamaha YZ450F "dressed" as a GG, I have suspected that Yamaha has a financial interest in GG. No proof, but I am just saying. Who funded the development of the new bikes?

10 years ago, everyone made fun of Korean cars. If you look at who is kicking butt now in the automotive arena, it is the Koreans. Who has killed Sony? Samsung.

India and China might be low quality now, but that doesn't mean that they can't become high quality in the future. It depends on where they see the revenue.

BTW, I ride old (1971 and 1978) BMWs, not just because they are BMWs (I did buy them for those reasons, but that was 30 years ago), but because i can't find a modern street bike that does it for me. My buddy spend $23K on a Ducati Multi-strada, and the thing toasted its tranny at 500 miles. My $1500 BMWs (at the time) have never left me stranded.

Part of it is the roll of the dice. Maybe I've just been lucky.

I think the Yamaha/GG venture is much like the Honda/Montesa trials deal. I know one thing for sure, I will definitely not buy a mc from India, China or Korea. I don't care if KTM Austria does bring the Indian Dukes into their factory for qc purposes, I'm not convinced that KTM Austria knows a defect when they see one....I have not been a big fan of KTM for awhile now due to all the past problems, i.e. gas caps, paper thin expansion chambers, broken header manifolds etc. I never liked the PDS linkless setup. And each year KTM sells more and more bikes and each year there is a longer list of defects. No thank you.

 

[Clay]

I don't know but I don't believe that Yamaha has any financial interest in Gas Gas. I have had a ton of conversations with GG about Yamaha and they never talk about Yamaha in any way that would suggest a partnership of any kind. I was told that, after Yamaha dumped all of those '06 250F motors, that they did not want to do business with Gas Gas anymore. They finally agreed but raised the price almost $1000 and demanded that they not be sold in the US. That does not sound like a partnership.
As to who funded the development on the new bikes.....Gas Gas did.
You guys think too much!!!!!

 

[blitz11]

So Yamaha made them buy their Dakar bike?

http://www.gasgasmotos.es/en/news/226-gas-gas-laia-sanz-and-marc-guasch-facing-the.html

Yeah, I should think less, and ride more. I think i'd be way happier if i did.

 

[Cruiser]

The 690 production line after 2012 was stated to be moving to india.. so there has been a rush on buying all the 690's up.. nobody wants to get stuck with a 2013.. and the Duke 125, and they have a 350 duke also, idea made, a new duke off the 690 platform planned and rumor has it the new adv line on the twin 800cc bike will be made there also..

 

[Clay]

So Yamaha made them buy their Dakar bike?

http://www.gasgasmotos.es/en/news/226-gas-gas-laia-sanz-and-marc-guasch-facing-the.html

Yeah, I should think less, and ride more. I think i'd be way happier if i did.

Think about the turmoil in the GG factory in November and December due to the problems with the airbox. I don't think there was any way they would have had time to build a Gas Gas with a Yamaha engine before Dakar. It was much easier to buy a Yamaha at that point. Next year, if they do Dakar again, I'm sure it will be on a production GG with the Yamaha engine.

 

[Cruiser]

I would rather see a production GG with a production GG engine.. just saying...

 

[Clay]

I would rather see a production GG with a production GG engine.. just saying...

Me, too! Then we could sell them here in the US.

 

[dcg141]

Same could be said for the Japaneese even before that, but they came in with a good, cheap product in basically an open market. Hyuandis are excellent cars, my wife's Sante Fe went 120K on just routine brake replacements, much better than its replacement Nissan Pathfinder and certainly better than any domestic we have had. Bikes are different though and the market is different, while Hyuandi is good the Korean Hyosung(sp?) is not doing nearly as well.

Ducatis are money pits. I loved mine and it was trouble free, but when its time to buy parts its just absurd. I rode mine a lot and racked up the miles so I was facing this reality. Thats the main reason I sold it, and why you see a lot of Ducatis for sale before the warranty is up. I'd love to have another big motard bike like that for sure, it fit me perfect and did everything I needed well. Just something more affordable over the long haul.

The other thing with new street bikes is they run so lean and hot stock that you are forced to do something about it with mapping, exhaust, etc. This heat is what will contribute to a lot of issues. Its more of a hassle than setting up a new dirt bike.

I was going to say when the term asain comes up it means different things. Chinese means cheap copies. Korean more and more means quality. Japanese definalty means quality. So what does India mean? Well the jury is out on that. But given where they have taken Rover and Jag it looks like it might be very good. Also every Japanese mfg has a relationship with India. Most having them produce units for the domestic market in India. Personally I think India is the next Asian giant and not China. They show a flair for engineering that the Chinese can't seem to muster. There is change coming to the European motorcycle market. If you have not seen it yet VW is getting ready to buy Ducati. Some pretty deep pockets out there now involved.