Marzocchi Shiver 45 help?

[Jakobi]

That 14mm bleed shim would have been allowing a lot of fluid to slip past the stack. With the ports actually closed off now you should see quite a significant increase in stability. Hopefully that doesn't translate into harshness.

Seems to be two trains of thought when it comes to damping. Digressive and progressive; a firm setup that holds itself up high but blows through stroke when it needs to, or a softer plushy mushy ride that firms up to resist bottoming.

One tends to feel quite firm when you sit on the bike, but handles better the harder you push it. The other feels very plush but can get a bit willowish and harsh when you try to go fast. As always, it's a compromise and trying to find what suits your purpose best..

 

[ssaulnier]

Both the base valve piston and the midvalve/rebound piston have bleed holes already drilled into them from the factory to make the forks feel plush while trail riding at leisurely speeds and rock gardens. For good fork stroke control going faster the bleed shims are generally removed.

I am just now starting to work on these Zoke forks on my new to me 2007 EC300 as I have never had a pair before.

I opened up one of mine yesterday and found that it had been revalved already, but the stacks looked unbalanced, with a lot more shims on the base valve than the mid valve. The base valve had 12 22x.1 face shims, way too many. The midvalve looked reasonable, except for the 18x.1 bleed shim (on top of the bleed hole already drilled in the valve). I suspect this setup is way unbalanced with too much damping on the base valve and too much bleed on the mid.

I am going to try this (credit to Motosportz, Kyle Tarry & GMP at CafeHusky):
Base Valve:
22.1 (3x)
14.1
20.1
18.1
16.1
14.1
12.1
10.1

Midvalve assembly (rebound stack on top with midvalve stack below piston):
<nut>
15.1
17.1
18.1
19.1 (2x)
22.1 (2x)
<piston>
22.1 (2x)
20.1
18.1
16.1
14.1
12.1
10.1
18.1

Float is about 1mm with this midvalve setup

I am going to try 130 mm air gap using Mobile 1 ATF (7.5 wt)

This fork had a broken oring on the base valve so the fluid was leaking out and there was only about 400 ml left when I dumped it out. It must have been about 200 ml too low because it required just under 600 ml of fresh ATF to create a 130 mm air gap.

I also need to replace the bushings and seals. I need to order them and then will pull down the 2nd fork and revalve it too.

I have no idea what condition the shock is in, I suspect it needs an overhaul too, so I should really do that before riding the bike again.

Good luck with your bike. Steve

 

[motopsycho87]

Don't know if anybody has been following my suspension post on thumpertalk, but I made my own version of a gold valve, all ports are 4.5mm and bleed port is 1.5mm.

This gives over double the area available for oil flow in the compression stack, so should hopefully allow things to move faster instead of feeling harsh as hell. I've assembled using the same shim stack as the last page, which was a lot better on the weekend, but as the braking bumps got choppier, it got harder and harder. Hopefully this will alleviate the symptoms somewhat...

And to the machinists out there, I know it looks rough as assholes in this picture, it was about half way through the 'tittivation' period when I took it

 

[motopsycho87]

ssaulnier may I ask what weight you are and what springs you are running?

 

[ssaulnier]

I bought the bike with 0.46 fork springs in it already. They have about 4.5mm preload using the spacer already in the bike. I weigh 220 pounds ready to ride.

I just finished revalving the forks last night and adding new Mobile 1 ATF with 130mm air gap.

I have not ridden the bike after revalving yet so I don't know what they feel like, but they are bound to be better than my first ride. First ride was actually OK (not great) with really dirty oil, low oil level in one fork and 12 face shims on the base valves.

Good luck with your gold valves. They look great. You are one talented dude.

Enjoy. Steve

 

[motopsycho87]

Cheers buddy.

You surprise me with your front springs. I weight 95kg nekkid (210lbs) and feel about right on 0.50 front springs with 7mm preload. I have the rear at 30mm static and 95mm race (without my boots, helmet and armour on). It's the best this bike has felt so far considering I've tried stock, 4.4, 4.8, a mix of both, and 5.0...

That being said I rode my friends yz250f on the weekend, he weighs 58kg (fuck all!) And his rear was as floppy and undamped as could be... But i loved it. It's getting to the point now that if I can't get this bike riding nice I'm going to have to get shot of it . You shouldn't have to put this much work into something for it to be as good as a standard anything else.

 

[motopsycho87]

Decided to make further new valves, this time with a smaller bleed hole. Pulled the 11mm shim at put it at the top of the stack, making something half way between what would be an Mx and an enduro stack... Will find out sunday!

 

[motopsycho87]

Righty, I've tried the valving below on,

Base Valve

22x0.15
22x0.15
14x0.15
17x0.1
16x0.1
14x0.1
12x0.2
12x0.2
12x0.2
11x0.1

Mid valve (as set by tuner)

Nut
15x0.1
22x0.15
23x0.1
23x0.1
22x0.1
Valve
11x0.2
22x0.3
15x0.3
Spring

Still a little soft believe it or not, with the new base valve its way better, no harsh knocks to the bars over the fast choppy stuff but still using the travel too quickly.

I don't understand why everything was set up with so much free bleed, ok it doesn't really have much affect on compression, but considering the washer thickness it's additional free bleed on the rebound. That on top of the base valve originally have 1x 2mm bleed and the mid valve having 1x 2mm bleed... And the base valve stack having free bleed, no wonder there was practically no damping at all...

So now I've got,

Base Valve (1mm bleed hole)

22x0.15
22x0.15
14x0.15
17x0.1
16x0.1
14x0.1
12x0.2
12x0.2
12x0.2
11x0.1

Mid valve

Nut
15x0.1
22x0.15
22x0.1
23x0.1
22x0.1
Valve (2mm bleed)
22x0.3
15x0.3
11x0.2
Spring

Hopefully this will firm things up a little bit more, considering I'm currently sitting at 2 clicks from full hard on rebound and compression...

 

[motopsycho87]

Okey dokey, with the above valving the bike feels pretty damn good on the MX track, but with one problem, it does not absorb the chop of braking bumps. My hands feel like they're beginning to bruise when I hit that part of the track.

Considering how much free bleed these forks had, and how much I've taken away, I've decided to return to a 2 stage setup on compression, and add a 2 stage to the rebound using only 2x.1mm shims before crossover. I'm hoping that this at least takes the bite off the beginning of the compression stroke, and allows the rebound to react quicker on the small choppy stuff. I also found that the rebound was too fast when recovering from bottoming, the blow stack when put into restackor gives a decent amount less LSR, and more HSR so hopefully the best of both worlds!

Base valve - Note how uber the stack is after the crossover! When you add a crossover you are adding more flow to the HSC circuit, so in order to maintain the same amount of damping when going from single to dual stage, the HSC stack needs to be significantly increased.

22 0.10
22 0.10
11 0.10
22 0.15
22 0.15
21 0.10
19 0.10
19 0.10
17 0.10
16 0.10
16 0.10
14 0.10
14 0.10
11 0.20
12 0.20
12 0.20
14 0.15
16 2.15

Mid compression - Check valve, bypassing the mid valve completely seems to have had the best effect on plushness so far.

22 0.30
15 1.00

Rebound - Restactor sees this stack as significantly softer at 1m/s, roughly the same at 2-4m/s and about 10% firmer at 4-8m/s, which will hopefully reduce the pogo effect after big landings

23 0.10
23 0.10
12 0.20
23 0.10
23 0.15
15 0.10
9.8 1.00

 

[motopsycho87]

So I rode it as above and so far love it. Perfect middle ground for MX / Enduro. Gets a bit harsh on nasty braking bumps but my technique was sloppy and I was tired by the time they appeared.

I've bought a second gasgas (2002) with the same suspension. It has 0.47 springs up front and 5.4 on the rear and has been revalved to suit. Looking at the forks the baking is very heavy mid and base valve (I'll post next time I'm at the pc!) But I'm doing a mandatory strip and rebuild of everything before I ride it, will be interesting to see if lighter springs and heavier valving feel better than heavy springs and light valving. And just howucj difference a mid valve makes!