Missing 2 mins per lap but front is at grip limit!

[stay_upright]

Finished a race on Sunday - a lot of flat grass and mud corners I would say corner speed plus entry and exit speeds will determine 95% of your overall time.

I had a decent front tyre on - used quite a bit for over a year but not severely worn and my corner speed is limited by its grip - I know i'm pushing it as I had ~30 little front end slides when cornering but I don't loose any time and didn't crash because of the slides so I feel I cannot go faster in the corners.

Braking I'd say I'm up there with the best I brake very hard very late - I overtook 10's of people on the brakes and never got overtook there.

Accelerating out of corners I can make a bit of time there when the going is grippy but my top speed is also good so only the acceleration out of the corner which is limited by fitness really.

The top riders (at this local event) are lapping in 11 min and me 13 min so they are a lot faster.. And they are faster round the corners.

I can run a new front tyre next time but doubt it's worth 2 minutes - so how are they cornering faster than me?

FWIW rear end grip was good - no issues there loosing the rear particularly and had a new tyre on the rear.

I also run tubliss and had 6 front 5 rear PSI so that should help grip quite a bit as well.

Thoughts?

 

[Zman]

Can you drop any total weight of the rider and bike?
Have you tried to drop the forks in the triple clamps (to lower the front end) to get more grip?

 

[stay_upright]

The only time I dropped the forks the front sort of tucked when riding uphill corners stood up so I put it back and have no more handling problems.

I think I need to try a new cornering style wider line and aggressive with the throttle after watching some YouTube clips which are quite good.

I can also try to focus on getting my weight further forward to stop the front sliding. Its a shame there were no photos from the last event to see what the difference in posture is between me and the faster guys.

 

[fullthrottle]

The only time I dropped the forks the front sort of tucked when riding uphill corners stood up so I put it back and have no more handling problems.

I think I need to try a new cornering style wider line and aggressive with the throttle after watching some YouTube clips which are quite good.

I can also try to focus on getting my weight further forward to stop the front sliding. Its a shame there were no photos from the last event to see what the difference in posture is between me and the faster guys.

This^^ and lower tyre pressures if not rocky

 

[stay_upright]

Lower than 6 psi that I have already??

Ive been looking at this video quite a bit

https://youtu.be/ayvwni_Ex1I

I think if I want to get faster I need to change my technique to this which will be quite a big change and a lot to learn. I think I'm riding more like a road bike (rear wheel not spinning not drifting) with MX position (sitting on tank, leg out)

 

[fullthrottle]

Lower than 6 psi that I have already??

Ive been looking at this video quite a bit

https://youtu.be/ayvwni_Ex1I

I think if I want to get faster I need to change my technique to this which will be quite a big change and a lot to learn. I think I'm riding more like a road bike (rear wheel not spinning not drifting) with MX position (sitting on tank, leg out)

Something that helped me was when you go from standing and braking to sitting for the corner make a conscious effort to sit straight on the outside edge of the seat it gives a lot more front traction than siting on the flat of your seat, also don't discount how much difference a brand new tyre makes over a year old tyre even if not really worn they still lose the edge grip and rubber gets harder.

 

[stay_upright]

Full throttle - so your sitting position leans the bike over further?

I'll have a new front tyre for the next event (but partially worn rear)

There is a lot of conflicting info on whether to drift the rear round corners or not , the video I posted says yes - some others say no...

But I would guess if the corner is anything like a speedway corner then drifting is the way to go (I'm not saying I could do it though) since speedway guys know the fastest way (for flat loamy corners at least)

 

[swazi_matt]

Full throttle - so your sitting position leans the bike over further?

I'll have a new front tyre for the next event (but partially worn rear)

There is a lot of conflicting info on whether to drift the rear round corners or not , the video I posted says yes - some others say no...

But I would guess if the corner is anything like a speedway corner then drifting is the way to go (I'm not saying I could do it though) since speedway guys know the fastest way (for flat loamy corners at least)

sitting on the outside edge is similar to weighting the outside footpeg. It helps push your tyre into the ground improving grip.
There are some good youtube that will help with body position for cornering braking etc. There are also drills that can help like fig-8 and circle ruts. Better yet is to try and get on a pro training day with the likes of Chris birch or Shane watts

 

[CDN Rick]

Assuming you are doing all of this already but here is what I was taught by Chris Birch.

- Sit very far forward on the seat. If you think you are far enough forward you probably aren't.
-Butt cheek should be hanging off the side of the seat.
-Inside leg should be out and even with your front fork leg.
-Outside leg should be on the peg trying to break it off by pressing on it. There is no such thing as pushing too hard unless it actually snaps off.
-Head should be forward and positioned vertically above the contact point of the front tire on the ground looking up and forward.
-Hand placement and pressure is kinda hard to explain online.

If you ever get a chance to go to a local professional riding school even for just one day you'll be glad you did. Best money I ever spent on bikes was classes with Pro's.

 

[LAWMAN]

All good suggestions + I bet a new front tire would have made more difference than you think

 

[Caravan Monster]

Guessing you're racing CEC, TBEC or Fast Eddy. Fast Eddy used to do short training sessions at his practice days where you could ask directly about technique on the same sort of ground. I guess they're probably still doing it.

 

[Jim Cook]

One characteristic that most GasGas bikes have is the ability to turn quickly; especially under power.

If a rider can do his slowing for a turn, then just a microsecond before he initiates the direction change he hits the throttle, the bike will corner like it is on rails.
This technique will bring you out of a corner a full 10 mph faster than "slowing, turning, and then accelerating out of the turn".

It was un-natural for me to do this.
I had to practice it at low speeds, and then keep it up while I went faster. For a long time, I had to do the slow speed drill each riding day, until it became natural. It really pays off.
(This works especially well for the 2002-2004 chassis, which is more stable but slower turning than other early models. It has worked very well for me on all of them, even the 2011.)

Good Riding and Racing to You!
Jim

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[CDN Rick]

One characteristic that most GasGas bikes have is the ability to turn quickly; especially under power.

If a rider can do his slowing for a turn, then just a microsecond before he initiates the direction change he hits the throttle, the bike will corner like it is on rails.
This technique will bring you out of a corner a full 10 mph faster than "slowing, turning, and then accelerating out of the turn".

It was un-natural for me to do this.
I had to practice it at low speeds, and then keep it up while I went faster. For a long time, I had to do the slow speed drill each riding day, until it became natural. It really pays off.
(This works especially well for the 2002-2004 chassis, which is more stable but slower turning than other early models. It has worked very well for me on all of them, even the 2011.)

Good Riding and Racing to You!
Jim

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Could you expand on this? I was taught to accelerate coming out of the corner sitting far forward on the seat, pushing hard on the outside footpeg, with my inside leg even with the fork tube, and my head plumb with the contact patch of the front tire.

Is my seating still correct but my throttle wrong?

What is your body positioning when accelerating through a corner?

 

[Jim Cook]

Could you expand on this? I was taught to accelerate coming out of the corner sitting far forward on the seat, pushing hard on the outside footpeg, with my inside leg even with the fork tube, and my head plumb with the contact patch of the front tire.

Is my seating still correct but my throttle wrong?

What is your body positioning when accelerating through a corner?

Your positioning and weighting the outside footpeg sounds good to me, although I try to keep both feet on the pegs in the tight woods.
(Weighting the outside footpeg was the only way to keep the old '87 WR430 Husky hooked up when cornering; so I've been doing it a long time. On the GasGas, it all depends on what's happening as to how much weight I put on that outside peg.)
I always lean forward with my crotch up on the tank when I'm in a hurry exiting the turns. My crotch moves up to the tank as I'm hitting the front brake.

I was simply suggesting that you try whacking the throttle open "on the way" to turning the bike (twist the throttle as you go to move the bars), so that it turns faster and gives you a faster exit speed; which gives you a head start towards the next turn. I found it gave me a noticeably higher exit speed when I mastered it. The GasGas bikes amaze me with their ability to turn under power.

 

[CDN Rick]

Your positioning and weighting the outside footpeg sounds good to me, although I try to keep both feet on the pegs in the tight woods.
(Weighting the outside footpeg was the only way to keep the old '87 WR430 Husky hooked up when cornering; so I've been doing it a long time. On the GasGas, it all depends on what's happening as to how much weight I put on that outside peg.)
I always lean forward with my crotch up on the tank when I'm in a hurry exiting the turns. My crotch moves up to the tank as I'm hitting the front brake.

I was simply suggesting that you try whacking the throttle open "on the way" to turning the bike (twist the throttle as you go to move the bars), so that it turns faster and gives you a faster exit speed; which gives you a head start towards the next turn. I found it gave me a noticeably higher exit speed when I mastered it. The GasGas bikes amaze me with their ability to turn under power.

Very interesting. I'm going to try this.... In a wide open pasture!

If I think it through in my head it would deweight the front tire and lose traction. But maybe I should stop thinking so much and go for a ride.

 

[Jakobi]

Different techniques for different corners.

But sweeping corners offering limited traction quite often the quickest way around is sideways!

Some good examples here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xfpU0yIpG4

 

[CDN Rick]

Different techniques for different corners.

But sweeping corners offering limited traction quite often the quickest way around is sideways!

Some good examples here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xfpU0yIpG4

I lack the testicular fortitude to try that move yet. Maybe this coming summer....

 

[Jim Cook]

Very interesting. I'm going to try this.... In a wide open pasture!

If I think it through in my head it would deweight the front tire and lose traction. But maybe I should stop thinking so much and go for a ride.

Since your weight will have shifted forward from dragging the front brake and already loaded the front tire, the tire will bite as you gas it and turn. But, you need to hit the gas as you are letting off the brake, just as you start to "throw" the bars. (tight woods tree dodging)
Do it in "slow motion" first, to get the timing down.
My natural inclination is to slow down, turn, and gas it. That is not the fast way. It turns much better under power, when I slow down, gas it, and turn.

Let me know how it works for you.

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[CDN Rick]

Since your weight will have shifted forward from dragging the front brake and already loaded the front tire, the tire will bite as you gas it and turn. But, you need to hit the gas as you are letting off the brake, just as you start to "throw" the bars. (tight woods tree dodging)
Do it in "slow motion" first, to get the timing down.
My natural inclination is to slow down, turn, and gas it. That is not the fast way. It turns much better under power, when I slow down, gas it, and turn.

Let me know how it works for you.

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Tried it.. Key word being tried... lol

I think I got it right about 3 or 4 times cause my bikes seemed to shoot out of the corner way faster than normal those few times.
I assume you are using this on corners near or over 90 degree's mostly?

Certainly made me think about my technique. I hope to spend a lot more time on this over the winter and into next year. Cornering is where I can gain a ton of time and I need to get better at it!

 

[Jim Cook]

Tried it.. Key word being tried... lol

I think I got it right about 3 or 4 times cause my bikes seemed to shoot out of the corner way faster than normal those few times.
I assume you are using this on corners near or over 90 degree's mostly?

Certainly made me think about my technique. I hope to spend a lot more time on this over the winter and into next year. Cornering is where I can gain a ton of time and I need to get better at it!

I appreciate that you tried my suggestion.

It will help you dodge trees in the single track best of all; but yes, I was speaking of sharp corners.


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