NEDW needle - Where do i start?

T

Timbre

New member
I have just purchased a NEDW needle to try in my 2011 GG EC 300. I have been having a substantial amount of "drool" with my current jetting, though the bike does seem to run very well. Typically on a 50 mile ride, the drool will go the entire length of my silencer and drip off at the bottom. I dont think this is acceptable. A little bit, i can deal with, but this is way too much...?

I am wanting to know a good place to start with jetting on this new NEDW needle in my bike . . . based on the following specs.

2011 EC 300
36 mm Keihin carb
#7 slide
Riding altitude 3,000 ft to 7,000 ft (in Idaho)

USING NOW
N2ZW needle clip #2
35 pilot
170 main
A/S 2.5 turns out

WANTING TO USE
NEDW needle
Based on the above specs, where should i start?

Thanks much!

Cheers!
 
Timbre said:
I have just purchased a NEDW needle to try in my 2011 GG EC 300. I have been having a substantial amount of "drool" with my current jetting, though the bike does seem to run very well. Typically on a 50 mile ride, the drool will go the entire length of my silencer and drip off at the bottom. I dont think this is acceptable. A little bit, i can deal with, but this is way too much...?

I am wanting to know a good place to start with jetting on this new NEDW needle in my bike . . . based on the following specs.

2011 EC 300
36 mm Keihin carb
#7 slide
Riding altitude 3,000 ft to 7,000 ft (in Idaho)

USING NOW
N2ZW needle clip #2
35 pilot
170 main
A/S 2.5 turns out

WANTING TO USE
NEDW needle
Based on the above specs, where should i start?

Thanks much!

Cheers!
Click to expand...

That might be the kicker - most if not almost all of the 2011s had 38mm carbs. You should be getting a stronger signal though, so you may be able to go leaner than what is posted. Check Jakobi's posts for the definitive NEDW tuning guide.
 
For that bike and those altitudes, I think you would have been better off with an NEDJ or even a NECJ #3, 40 pilot and 172 main. What is the weather like for you at this time of year?

For the NEDW I would start on the #2 clip with a 40 pilot and a 172 main.Depending on the weather.
 
With MJC on this one again too after my own experiences with the needles. I'd be hitting up the NEDJ#2 with the pilot and main that match. 38P for a 36mm carb. Maybe 165/168 on the main? I'd start with a 172 and work down for sure though.

I know you can't really compare ktms and ggs, but in saying that the 300excs here in Australia are using the 36mm carbs with a 38P NECJ#3 162 at sea level temps between 20C and 30C.

My final testing brought me in with 40 NEDJ#2 172 on the 38mm carb but I run at 300-1000M in high humidity and mid 20 to mid 30C.

Middle clip isn't a bad place to start and you'll soon know which way to move.
 
Ok so with me running a 38 carb on my 2010 300 in altitudes between 500-1900m (mostly 600-1200m) I should also start with the nedj needle?

Looking more for bottom end performance don't mind if I'm the slowest on the road so long as I get to chill at the top of climbs and watch others sweat;-)
 
swazi_matt said:
Ok so with me running a 38 carb on my 2010 300 in altitudes between 500-1900m (mostly 600-1200m) I should also start with the nedj needle?

Looking more for bottom end performance don't mind if I'm the slowest on the road so long as I get to chill at the top of climbs and watch others sweat;-)
Click to expand...

Matt,

Considering we have basically run the same thing across our bikes since day one. Similar conditions both in temp and elevation I'd say you'll be pretty close on with 40 NEDJ 172/170. Start big and drop if you need to.

I'm basing this off you running 38 N3EH/N3CH#2 175/712.

When you talk in terms of bottom end performance I would say the NEDJ is a lack of bottom end performance. Its got no snap to it like the N3 range does. Its smooth and torquey though and very forgiving to throttle input. IE point the bike where you want to go, open the throttle and let it take you there. Need to lift the front end? open it some more, maybe flick the clutch.

I find myself running in the higher revs when it opens up to keep the bike in the meat of the power, and love how docile and smooth it becomes when things get slow and nasty. It works for riding smooth and fast for longer periods of time.
 
Jakobi said:
Matt,

Considering we have basically run the same thing across our bikes since day one. Similar conditions both in temp and elevation I'd say you'll be pretty close on with 40 NEDJ 172/170. Start big and drop if you need to.

I'm basing this off you running 38 N3EH/N3CH#2 175/712.

When you talk in terms of bottom end performance I would say the NEDJ is a lack of bottom end performance. Its got no snap to it like the N3 range does. Its smooth and torquey though and very forgiving to throttle input. IE point the bike where you want to go, open the throttle and let it take you there. Need to lift the front end? open it some more, maybe flick the clutch.

I find myself running in the higher revs when it opens up to keep the bike in the meat of the power, and love how docile and smooth it becomes when things get slow and nasty. It works for riding smooth and fast for longer periods of time.
Click to expand...

Think of it this way.

N3ej= Motocross type response and power throughout the range.

NEDJ= smooth/torquey type power with a nice topend.

I don't think either needle produces anymore actual power or torque than the other. It's just how they go about producing the power that makes them both good,but different.
 
Thanks for your input gentlemen. . .much appreciated! I sometimes wish there was a cross reference chart that would show how these needles differ from each other . . . like what each letter in the needle stamp means. That would sure be helpful :)

Any other comments or suggestions?
 
Timbre said:
Thanks for your input gentlemen. . .much appreciated! I sometimes wish there was a cross reference chart that would show how these needles differ from each other . . . like what each letter in the needle stamp means. That would sure be helpful :)

Any other comments or suggestions?
Click to expand...

the jd jetting excel graphing tool comes pretty close

I just wish it had newer needles in it, I'm tempted to hack/unlock the hidden sheets so I can add more needles myself
 
Timbre said:
.I sometimes wish there was a cross reference chart that would show how these needles differ from each other . . . like what each letter in the needle stamp means.
Click to expand...

pe_pwk_26_28_jn.gif
 
MrBlah's got it right. JDs does a pretty good job, however is missing some of the newer needles which is a bummer..

I have kind of worked out a break down of the OEM Needle codes.
N-X-Y-Z (N3EJ) (NEDW) (NOZI) (N1EF)

N - OEM Needle identifier
X - Taper profile
Y - Clip position/length
Z - Diameter

The X/Y doesn't seem to share any common ground between needles. 3 seems to be yamahas 2 taper needle. E is suzi's 3 taper, O is ktms 3 taper, 1 is the stock GG needle also a 3 taper. I'm not sure if the tapers are the same between the NOZ/N1E. They do feel very similar. The Y part which indicates clip pos/length is also paired up with the taper profile (x) to form a needle with the same properties that allows for half clip adjustments. Exmaples N3Ex/N3Cx, NEDx/NECx. I have a feeling NOZx/N1Ex is the exception and are half clip different using the same taper.

Z is the needle diameter of the straight section of the needle. It covers idle to 1/8-1/4 depending on the needles taper profile. Sizes range from:

Nxxx needle diameters
D=2.685mm
E=2.695mm (JD Blue)
F=2.705mm
G= 2.715
H= 2.725
W/I=2.735 (JD Red)
J= 2.745
K=2.755
 
Timbre said:
I am using premix of 40:1. Also using 91 octane non-ethanol gas.
Click to expand...

What I meant was what kind of premix oil you use, that ratio is fine. Motul 800 has a high flash point and is notorious for spooge. I run Elf 2XT on all my bikes, no spooge, same bikes same jetting with Motul, spooge. Not saying that you can't cure it with jetting, just that jetting by spooge isn't a particularly good way to judge jetting.
 
Note that the OEM needles and the generic Keihin needles both use different sizings for their lettering, but now you know the differences you and do a quasi comparison on paper yourself. The Keihin needles are only a single straight taper though, which makes it hard to compare to an OEM needle which changes taper up to 3 times.
 
noobi said:
What I meant was what kind of premix oil you use, that ratio is fine. Motul 800 has a high flash point and is notorious for spooge. I run Elf 2XT on all my bikes, no spooge, same bikes same jetting with Motul, spooge. Not saying that you can't cure it with jetting, just that jetting by spooge isn't a particularly good way to judge jetting.
Click to expand...

Agreed also. This is why Motul recommends its 800 range be run at 60:1. The only problem with doing this is that it still changes your jetting.

My advice is to pick an oil you like, run it at its recommended ratio, and then jet for response.
 
noobi said:
What I meant was what kind of premix oil you use, that ratio is fine. Motul 800 has a high flash point and is notorious for spooge. I run Elf 2XT on all my bikes, no spooge, same bikes same jetting with Motul, spooge. Not saying that you can't cure it with jetting, just that jetting by spooge isn't a particularly good way to judge jetting.
Click to expand...

Oh . . . gotcha. I misunderstood.
I use TORCO SSO 100% synthetic premix oil at 40:1
 
Jakobi said:
MrBlah's got it right. JDs does a pretty good job, however is missing some of the newer needles which is a bummer..

I have kind of worked out a break down of the OEM Needle codes.
N-X-Y-Z (N3EJ) (NEDW) (NOZI) (N1EF)

N - OEM Needle identifier
X - Taper profile
Y - Clip position/length
Z - Diameter

The X/Y doesn't seem to share any common ground between needles. 3 seems to be yamahas 2 taper needle. E is suzi's 3 taper, O is ktms 3 taper, 1 is the stock GG needle also a 3 taper. I'm not sure if the tapers are the same between the NOZ/N1E. They do feel very similar. The Y part which indicates clip pos/length is also paired up with the taper profile (x) to form a needle with the same properties that allows for half clip adjustments. Exmaples N3Ex/N3Cx, NEDx/NECx. I have a feeling NOZx/N1Ex is the exception and are half clip different using the same taper.

Z is the needle diameter of the straight section of the needle. It covers idle to 1/8-1/4 depending on the needles taper profile. Sizes range from:

Nxxx needle diameters
D=2.685mm
E=2.695mm (JD Blue)
F=2.705mm
G= 2.715
H= 2.725
W/I=2.735 (JD Red)
J= 2.745
K=2.755
Click to expand...

That's fantastic stuff right there! If I could only wish for two things (even wishes have been downsized lately), it would be for an accurate diameter of the nozzle the needle slides in and for someone with a spectographer or whatever they are called to inspect the most common needles and publish a taper angle and location.
 
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