Price point climbing upwards??
- Thread starter desertgasser300
- Start date
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
My 2 cents
It's funny to watch how things have changed in the past decade.
I can remember sitting in a conference room, listing to the President of a certain MC company, tell us how our brand will never have to be "rebated" and if we ever used the word "discount" (the Devils word, he said) we would be fired on the spot. Now that same brand has to drop their pants beginning every NOV and all the way thru the spring just so they can get rid of the overstock, which floods the market and muddies up the water for everyone else. That same brand used to only be purchased by hard core racers, guys that appreciated the craftsmanship of the product. Now it is purchased by the masses because of big discounts only a few months after new year model units are released, which pushes the prices down on used units even farther.
The sad thing....This is only a temporary fix for pushing out over produced motorcycles. You have to continually grow your customer base, by creating new ones and that simply isn't happening. It doesn't matter if you have just one burger joint in town or 10...you can only sell so many hamburgers when the population isn't growing. That's what is happening right now in our industry.
But yet...when was the last time you saw ANY manufacturer do advertising / marketing that went after kids / new riders? Remember Honda "I Wanna Ride"? How many years ago was that? When was the last time you saw a commercial on the TTR lineup?
Simply put, if this industry doesn't do something soon to bring back an #1 affordable off road motorcycle, and #2 focus on the youth market, the sport will continue to nose dive.
Why can't we have bikes coming out of South America, from any one the Japanese factories at half of what the MSRP's are today? Example...imagine what a KDX200 (but with updated suspension) at $5999.00 would do for the dealers and the sport today.
Food for thought, because all we can do is dream about it.
It's funny to watch how things have changed in the past decade.
I can remember sitting in a conference room, listing to the President of a certain MC company, tell us how our brand will never have to be "rebated" and if we ever used the word "discount" (the Devils word, he said) we would be fired on the spot. Now that same brand has to drop their pants beginning every NOV and all the way thru the spring just so they can get rid of the overstock, which floods the market and muddies up the water for everyone else. That same brand used to only be purchased by hard core racers, guys that appreciated the craftsmanship of the product. Now it is purchased by the masses because of big discounts only a few months after new year model units are released, which pushes the prices down on used units even farther.
The sad thing....This is only a temporary fix for pushing out over produced motorcycles. You have to continually grow your customer base, by creating new ones and that simply isn't happening. It doesn't matter if you have just one burger joint in town or 10...you can only sell so many hamburgers when the population isn't growing. That's what is happening right now in our industry.
But yet...when was the last time you saw ANY manufacturer do advertising / marketing that went after kids / new riders? Remember Honda "I Wanna Ride"? How many years ago was that? When was the last time you saw a commercial on the TTR lineup?
Simply put, if this industry doesn't do something soon to bring back an #1 affordable off road motorcycle, and #2 focus on the youth market, the sport will continue to nose dive.
Why can't we have bikes coming out of South America, from any one the Japanese factories at half of what the MSRP's are today? Example...imagine what a KDX200 (but with updated suspension) at $5999.00 would do for the dealers and the sport today.
Food for thought, because all we can do is dream about it.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Agreed...but yet, we continue to see a growing number of privately owned SXS parks opening, which opens the door for another discussion....Why is it, the retail customer can't or won't pay $8500.00 for a new state of the art dirt bike because "he can't afford it", but 2 weeks later you see the same guy with a $20k SXS loaded on the trailer
twowheels
New member
You don't need a KDX200 for $5999 when you can buy a new 200XC-W for that same money a few months into the model year.
What you do need the KDX for is to provide a reliable-as-a-stone entry into the market that won't intimidate anybody and just puts a smile on your face everytime you ride. Beta is successfully trying it with the XTrainer albeit at a higher price point.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Guess it's what one considers "successful".
I agree it's a positive effort on Beta's part but they will never penetrate the beginner market in this country with limited "test bed" production numbers, $7k price tag and a brand that remains unknown to the average guy on the street, compared to any Japanese brand. Your example of the 200 XCW can also be used against the Beta. Why buy a foo-foo bike at $7k when you can buy a heavily discounted orange bike for $1000 less.
Regardless, it will be interesting to see the long term "success" of XTrainer, but it hardly fills the bill of what is needed in the larger scope of things. It is however, encouraging to see them offer this!
Then again...perhaps we are just seeing the times changing. First it was the 3 wheeler, then the 4 wheel ATV, now the SXS. They are EVERYWHERE.
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poelinca
New member
Against the 200 the XTrainer would be/is easier to ride for a beginner (like myself), since it doesn't have a PV, lower seat height and no fiddling with premix.
Also a complete beginner (like myself) would need lots of years on the XTrainer to handle it's full capabilities ... the only downside would the the suspension on the XTrainer, even so they should be plenty for the average Joe (like myself). I already saw people riding them (XTrainer) in competitions around here with great success, also saw a few Freerides too. So suspension should be plenty.
Can't tell about the rest of the world but a Kato 200 '16 model is selling at 6,6k + VAT (Freeride is at 5,8k + VAT) while the XTrainer is only 5,2k + VAT so it would be a way better deal to give Beta a call if you are in the market for a brand new bike.
p.s. prices are in euros, from dealers in Romania
p.s.s. i am no affiliate and do not advertise anything, i am a proud and happy owner of a Gas Gas EC300 and will be one for years to come (even tough the pro Kato guys laugh at my "chinese" bike, they are all whispering behind my back about how easy the Gas Gas is to kickstart)
Also a complete beginner (like myself) would need lots of years on the XTrainer to handle it's full capabilities ... the only downside would the the suspension on the XTrainer, even so they should be plenty for the average Joe (like myself). I already saw people riding them (XTrainer) in competitions around here with great success, also saw a few Freerides too. So suspension should be plenty.
Can't tell about the rest of the world but a Kato 200 '16 model is selling at 6,6k + VAT (Freeride is at 5,8k + VAT) while the XTrainer is only 5,2k + VAT so it would be a way better deal to give Beta a call if you are in the market for a brand new bike.
p.s. prices are in euros, from dealers in Romania
p.s.s. i am no affiliate and do not advertise anything, i am a proud and happy owner of a Gas Gas EC300 and will be one for years to come (even tough the pro Kato guys laugh at my "chinese" bike, they are all whispering behind my back about how easy the Gas Gas is to kickstart)
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I think you have some excellent points. Honda was really smart from the early days with the "You meet the nicest people.." and "I want to ride" campaigns. It was inclusive and made motorcycleing seem exciting, attainable and something that joe average could enjoy. A lot of people just want something to ride, not a replica of the bike that just won Erzberg. Those bikes are really cool but they aren't for everyone. As a kid I grew up on used bikes that had been handed down multiple times yet still functioned despite near complete neglect. These were DT's, IT's, DS's, KE's, RS's, XR's, KDX's, PE's you name it. They were cheap, plentiful and for the most part would seemingly run forever. There aren't really too many options these days for the kid that wants to give it a shot without spending a lot of money. CRF or TTR I guess. What kid on a budget wants to fool with a used four stroke race bike with an unverified history? I'd guess most youngsters aren't even aware that brands like GasGas, Beta, Sherco etc even exist.
poelinca
New member
Part of the problem is they don't build them like the used to. Everything is "race oriented" (take with a grain of salt) and every screw costs 20$ or more not to mention durability.
We live in an era that is driven by commercials and marketing, so people are paying top cash (witch the don't have, they borrow it from the bank) for a dream or a commercial quote ("Ready to race" sounds familiar ?).
How on earth would one think our global economy is sustainable if we always have to pay more and more because of all the debts around the world ? No wonder all prices are going up and up (because everybody has to pay debt) and mark my words they won't stop going up.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
AJP anyone?
These guys are on the right track but without a national marketing budget (and long term commitment), they are against a wall as well. http://motoajp.com/ If I remember Base model (air cooled $4799.00 and the water cooled base was $5999.00. They have a couple of R models too, for just a few dollars extra.
Friend of mine and former colleague Jason Dahners just bought his son one to ride and says it's worlds better than he expected. Another buddy Gary Pugh down in Knoxville, TN (Beta and AJP dealer) says the bikes are really quite good, and invited me down for a test ride. May have to take him up on that.
Any of you guys had the chance to ride one?
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These guys are on the right track but without a national marketing budget (and long term commitment), they are against a wall as well. http://motoajp.com/ If I remember Base model (air cooled $4799.00 and the water cooled base was $5999.00. They have a couple of R models too, for just a few dollars extra.
Friend of mine and former colleague Jason Dahners just bought his son one to ride and says it's worlds better than he expected. Another buddy Gary Pugh down in Knoxville, TN (Beta and AJP dealer) says the bikes are really quite good, and invited me down for a test ride. May have to take him up on that.
Any of you guys had the chance to ride one?
firffighter
New member
Rod, you made some excellent points and your time as a distributor I'm sure has brought you valuable insight to the state of off road currently. M
I agree that our sport has diminished over the past 7-8 years. Many factors, one of which was certainly the financial wows of 2008. Prior, everyone had a garage full of toys. Then, lots of toys for sale on CL.
Now, the side by sides have really become popular. I honesty hate quads and side by side because of what they do to our local trail systems. But it is an easy way for families to get into off roading.
I wish there were more emphasis on the beginner and intermediate aspect of our sport because that's where it grows. There is certainly a large downward trend toward woods type riding. Virtually no coverage of GNCC, WORCS is almost dead as well as Hare and hound in comparison to where it was 5-10 years ago. Europe seems to have transitioned to extreme enduro and Endurocross where they experience large popularity. Here in the states, young kids want to catch sick air and drive a sweet lifted Tundra, not put in 3 hours of hard work in the woods with no fans or hot chicks.
Look at it this way, Taddy does only Endurocross and a few extreme enduro events a year and bought a house in the south of France. Kalib Russell dominates GNCC and races the Enduro series and makes peanuts in comparison. Taddy sells bikes for KTM, Kalib isn't even know here in the US except for hardcore woods guys.
I agree that our sport has diminished over the past 7-8 years. Many factors, one of which was certainly the financial wows of 2008. Prior, everyone had a garage full of toys. Then, lots of toys for sale on CL.
Now, the side by sides have really become popular. I honesty hate quads and side by side because of what they do to our local trail systems. But it is an easy way for families to get into off roading.
I wish there were more emphasis on the beginner and intermediate aspect of our sport because that's where it grows. There is certainly a large downward trend toward woods type riding. Virtually no coverage of GNCC, WORCS is almost dead as well as Hare and hound in comparison to where it was 5-10 years ago. Europe seems to have transitioned to extreme enduro and Endurocross where they experience large popularity. Here in the states, young kids want to catch sick air and drive a sweet lifted Tundra, not put in 3 hours of hard work in the woods with no fans or hot chicks.
Look at it this way, Taddy does only Endurocross and a few extreme enduro events a year and bought a house in the south of France. Kalib Russell dominates GNCC and races the Enduro series and makes peanuts in comparison. Taddy sells bikes for KTM, Kalib isn't even know here in the US except for hardcore woods guys.
This to me is 99% of the issue. It seems most US states have purposely made it difficult if not impossible for people to find places to ride. Also the penalties for "illegal" riding have increased dramatically. They have truly "criminalized" off road riding in the states which is probably most manufacturers biggest single market.
I know in NJ the fines are OFF THE CHARTS, along with losing your bike to impounding and severe criminal charges (criminal trespassing, felony eluding). They really throw the book at you these days.
I had a small dirt bike growing up and I was lucky if my dad gave me extra gas to run it, let alone take me to a dedicated off road park (also they did not exist at the time). As long as we rode in the woods and stayed off the streets, the cops did not bother us and if they did catch us on the street they just brought us back to our parents house. Unfortunately, my parents got frustrated the few times it happened and sold my dirt bike and never bought one for me again until I could afford my own.
Fast forward to 2015. My buddy a couple years ago was riding in the woods when they saw a cop in the distance. They kept going not thinking anything of it, when they came out of the woods the cop cornered them and gave them FELONY evading tickets. They paid $10k in legal fees and are now considered convicted felons for off road riding. How crazy is that?? It will follow them for the rest of their lives for doing nothing more than trying to blow off some steam on a dirt bike.
Along with the legal responsibilities (someone else getting hurt on your kids bike), there are just too many major liabilities out there for most people to consider the sport other than those who are diehard riders.
Our society is turning into a police state.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Off topic but....2010, I was riding in the Daniel Boone National Forest (S-Tree trail). Took a wrong turn and ended up on a gravel service road. Totally dumfounded as to where I was at, I rode 500 yards on the gravel then turned around to see I had accidently gotten on a hiking trail. As I was headed back to reenter and get back into the woods, an NFS agent was suddenly there in his Jeep. Bounced out of that thing and started screaming at me. Wanted to see my drivers license, plates, insurance, rear view mirror, etc etc. When I explained what had happened, he threatened to impound the bike, I go to jail and he is only doing his job.
"Hummm...OK Barney, remember...your just doing your job so while we wait for the cops to show up, I'll need to go with you to the camp ground on top of the hill, and watch you write citations to about 75 kids who are riding on the same service road with their adult sized ATV's. You might want to call in a roll back, with all the vehicles your going to haul away, and call the county attorney and tell him the court log just got backed up for about 2 years"
He wrote me a $75.00 ticket, climbed in the Jeep and left.
firffighter
New member
It's very unfortunate, but the dirt biker is viewed as a dirt bag in most of the publics eyes. I'll have to say, I lay blame in 2 areas.
1) The local and state agencies could have cracked down years ago on the real idiots who ruin it for everyone. They could have sat at any popular public riding area on a busy Saturday and impounded hundreds of bikes from folks who should not be out there. You know the type, torn jeans, grease stained T-shirt, barely running 1985 RM250 with no spark arrestor, oil and gas dripping out of every orifice, wheeling 5th gear wide open through the staging area where families are. This is the same type who rut out trails by roosting in mud holes, flip off and yell at hikers, horseback riders, etc., and leave a pile of crap behind. That's the idiot who gives us all a bad reputation, and, unfortunately they're all over the place in our sport. No one sees the responsible rider who volunteers to maintain and build trails for multi use.
2) I blame ourselves. The off road community is disjointed and unorganized. If we could get it together like Sierra and so many other Green organizations, we could truly fight and have a voice. Unfortunately, we do not and so it goes we end up with what we have currently.
1) The local and state agencies could have cracked down years ago on the real idiots who ruin it for everyone. They could have sat at any popular public riding area on a busy Saturday and impounded hundreds of bikes from folks who should not be out there. You know the type, torn jeans, grease stained T-shirt, barely running 1985 RM250 with no spark arrestor, oil and gas dripping out of every orifice, wheeling 5th gear wide open through the staging area where families are. This is the same type who rut out trails by roosting in mud holes, flip off and yell at hikers, horseback riders, etc., and leave a pile of crap behind. That's the idiot who gives us all a bad reputation, and, unfortunately they're all over the place in our sport. No one sees the responsible rider who volunteers to maintain and build trails for multi use.
2) I blame ourselves. The off road community is disjointed and unorganized. If we could get it together like Sierra and so many other Green organizations, we could truly fight and have a voice. Unfortunately, we do not and so it goes we end up with what we have currently.
ramcclure200
Gold Level Site Supporter
The public perception is one thing and the Forest service guys are another thing i've been harassed by both on the dirt and the street and my beef is with the AMA i've been donating to for years and frankly not much to show for in the way of public perception but wait they are working on the ethanol fuel situation
and we get a magazine 
.This has been going on forever and they us riders organized around the AMA to be our voice and we thought help with these issues but in all these years i've personally not seen a benefit other than organized racing events.
The FS guys and the like are all the same greenies and hate anybody accessing the woods and they have a badge so it gives them a license to harass without using a bit of common sense whatsoever.
Now that the green movement has been advanced by light years since Clinton forward it would take an extreme national campaign to try to change peoples perception of our sport / hobby / passion and the AMA is still working hard and lobbying for ethanol free gas... oh yea its available at the gas station and I can choose to use it or not
The public perception is one thing and the Forest service guys are another thing i've been harassed by both on the dirt and the street and my beef is with the AMA i've been donating to for years and frankly not much to show for in the way of public perception but wait they are working on the ethanol fuel situation
This has been going on forever and they us riders organized around the AMA to be our voice and we thought help with these issues but in all these years i've personally not seen a benefit other than organized racing events.
The FS guys and the like are all the same greenies and hate anybody accessing the woods and they have a badge so it gives them a license to harass without using a bit of common sense whatsoever.
Now that the green movement has been advanced by light years since Clinton forward it would take an extreme national campaign to try to change peoples perception of our sport / hobby / passion and the AMA is still working hard and lobbying for ethanol free gas... oh yea its available at the gas station and I can choose to use it or not
Yep, and IMO the worst thing we can do is depend on the AMA or any governmental body to make things better for us. AMA seems largely incompetent or incapable of taking on real issues and government will throw out the baby with the bathwater to stop a perceived problem. IMO we have been our own worst enemy. Landowners fencing off land due to lawsuits. Why is that? They didn't sue themselves. Ridiculously loud four strokes, badly tuned smokey two strokes, going off marked trails, riding up and down the street in residential areas. What rational person would think any of that acceptable behavior or want to deal with it? We can keep saying "the equestrians, mountain bikers, hikers etc. do bad stuff too". It is a chump level excuse. How many of us have gone up to one of our riding buddies and told them to repack their muffler or don't bother showing up, or maybe acted a little less than impressed when someone was talking about some new out of bounds trail they cut? More power to any of you that have but I have a feeling a lot of riders look the other way when it comes to the dumb stuff we do. We reap what we sow.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
The public perception is one thing and the Forest service guys are another thing i've been harassed by both on the dirt and the street and my beef is with the AMA i've been donating to for years and frankly not much to show for in the way of public perception but wait they are working on the ethanol fuel situation
This has been going on forever and they us riders organized around the AMA to be our voice and we thought help with these issues but in all these years i've personally not seen a benefit other than organized racing events.
The FS guys and the like are all the same greenies and hate anybody accessing the woods and they have a badge so it gives them a license to harass without using a bit of common sense whatsoever.
Now that the green movement has been advanced by light years since Clinton forward it would take an extreme national campaign to try to change peoples perception of our sport / hobby / passion and the AMA is still working hard and lobbying for ethanol free gas... oh yea its available at the gas station and I can choose to use it or not
All good points sir. I'm a Charter Life Member and can honestly say, other than getting into the Hall of Fame last week for free, I'm hard pressed to find any value in the AMA for me personally. Heck, I don't even get the magazine now. They want me to pay for it!
While it might appear they spend all of OUR resources on fighting helmet laws and keeping E15 from making it to the pumps, there is no doubt they have won allot of small battles we never heard about along the way and a few big ones people tend to forget. What about the lead issue from back in 08-09. That was a doozy!!!
I used the AMA Government Relations office once. Back in 96 thru 98, I was fighting the Corp of Engineers over what I considered an illegal land closure of a riding area that had been open since 1976. It took 1500 names on a petition to get the Corp to hold a public hearing on the matter and they assured me they would be sending legal representation as well. So I asked the AMA to please send down their best gun slinger. What I got was a chain smoking paralegal who got his degree thru the mail...at best. The guy sat thru the entire meeting, never said a word, just took notes. Useful as tits on a chicken. Long story short, we lost the riding area and his response was "Well...you can't win 'em all".
If you have never been to the AMA headquarters in OH, you owe it to yourself to go. Its quite impressive...from the outside looking in.
memphis2857
New member
I guess things are different here in Indiana. We have 3 different off-road series based in Indiana and all of them are thriving. The IXCR sees over 200 bikes and as many quads at every race. Their largest turnout was over 400 bikes and 300 quads with well over 100 youth riders for bikes and quads alike.
The crossroads series just started this year and draws near 200 bikes to every race.
The Full Gas Sprint Enduro series is new and it is thriving as well
The ironman GNCC last year had over 1,000 bikes and nearly 800 quads last year.
The sport seems to be eclipsing motocross. MX tracks are closing left and right
Another thing I have noticed though is the bikes on the starting line are getting dated. You will find very few brand new bikes outside of the first 3 rows. People just can't afford a new KTM that off-road riders have been trained to believe is the only bike capable of winning races. This is caused by a marketing campaign for the ages and also by putting riders like Kaliub Russel, Ryan Dungey, and Marvin Musquin on their bikes. Between the 3 of them KTM will have the GNCC, National Enduro, Full Gas Enduro, outdoor motocross, and supercross championships! Remind you of any certain brand in the 80's?
I honestly feel like our sport is doing better than it was in the late 90's and early 2000's. I have seen more new riding areas open in the last 2 years than I ever have.
I guess I didn't really make any solid points just spewing my thoughts! Lol
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Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Not busting on you, just asking a question....but with all that going on in Indiana, then why did District 15 go belly up?
memphis2857
New member
Because it was very poorly managed and politics took priority within the ranks. IXCR, and MWXC are non AMA series and they are thriving. MAXC is ama and again politics is about to put them under. Crossroads is AMA and is very well run and seems like it will be around for a while
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