Starter Only engages 1/3 of the time .
- Thread starter Punk
- Start date
twowheels
New member
Anyone had problems with their starter whirling but only kicking in sometimes . Does it need a clean and lube or what ? Has anyone done this before or is they just aren't that good like the KTM starters ?
Thanks
Punk
Welcome aboard. Have a look around and search for the starter threads.
Cleaning never hurts, but you may have to shim the starter or adjust the gaskets on the ignition and power valve to get correct alignment.
A stronger battery (like a Shorai LiFe) helps engagement as well.
We have two, 2012 300's and for one a thinner gasket helped a little. The other we put in the Shorai battery. But honestly, I put in a Yuasa and it seems to work 98% of the time now. I may put the Shorai back in now that it's getting warmer. I've heard these new Li-on batteries can be temperature sensitive. Not sure how true that is.
I've had my starter assembly apart many times. Everything looks reasonable, but I am tired of seeing the little slivers of gear metal on the flywheel. Mine has always had poor function, I'd say it works 60% of the time. That means I have to push the button several times before it engages.
Other people have had trouble and then replaced the bendix assembly. This seems to have the greatest effect when it comes to improving the situation. The bendix feels fine when I inspect it. My starter motor has never had any issue cranking the engine regardless of battery strength. The problem has always been initial engagement.
If the gears mesh, the bike starts instantly. Many times I get gear clash noise when the pinion gear spins against the ring gear (without engaging). I've tried different lubes on the bendix assembly and very light motor oil seems to be better than heavier oil or grease.
It's easy to check gear backlash; just take your bendix and wind it out to full travel. Wrap it with masking tape to hold it extended. Put the side cover back on (bendix installed but without the starter motor). Check the free play by manually oscillating the drive gear at the top of the bendix. You should have a few degrees of play. Too tight means the bendix will be slow releasing after it cranks the motor. Way too tight and the gears can't engage.
I have polished both my pinion and ring gears to reduce the shards created by gear clash. I had a .020" thick gasket with good backlash, and recently changed it to .040" thick for very generous backlash. I also machined the shaft recess in the cover to be .040" lower in the case. This was just done to restore the free distance between the gears that increased as a result of the polishing.
I've also installed the 8 cell Ballistic Li battery since it has more cranking capacity than the Shorai battery I had in place of the Yuasa stock battery. I've only just got the engine back in the bike (new piston, bore and rod) so I can't say if any of my recent changes will help the starter situation. It may be that most of the stating issues relate to the quality of the bendix unit.
I'd like to know if the factory actually made some engineering changes to the bendix parts on the newer bikes. I've never seen anyone post that their starter has 100% perfect operation.
Other people have had trouble and then replaced the bendix assembly. This seems to have the greatest effect when it comes to improving the situation. The bendix feels fine when I inspect it. My starter motor has never had any issue cranking the engine regardless of battery strength. The problem has always been initial engagement.
If the gears mesh, the bike starts instantly. Many times I get gear clash noise when the pinion gear spins against the ring gear (without engaging). I've tried different lubes on the bendix assembly and very light motor oil seems to be better than heavier oil or grease.
It's easy to check gear backlash; just take your bendix and wind it out to full travel. Wrap it with masking tape to hold it extended. Put the side cover back on (bendix installed but without the starter motor). Check the free play by manually oscillating the drive gear at the top of the bendix. You should have a few degrees of play. Too tight means the bendix will be slow releasing after it cranks the motor. Way too tight and the gears can't engage.
I have polished both my pinion and ring gears to reduce the shards created by gear clash. I had a .020" thick gasket with good backlash, and recently changed it to .040" thick for very generous backlash. I also machined the shaft recess in the cover to be .040" lower in the case. This was just done to restore the free distance between the gears that increased as a result of the polishing.
I've also installed the 8 cell Ballistic Li battery since it has more cranking capacity than the Shorai battery I had in place of the Yuasa stock battery. I've only just got the engine back in the bike (new piston, bore and rod) so I can't say if any of my recent changes will help the starter situation. It may be that most of the stating issues relate to the quality of the bendix unit.
I'd like to know if the factory actually made some engineering changes to the bendix parts on the newer bikes. I've never seen anyone post that their starter has 100% perfect operation.
Glenn,
I don't agree, think of automotive starters from years ago. Their bendix units were completely dry. Modern vehicles use shift fork actuators on the starters for better reliability; the shift mechanism forces the tooth engagement.
The GG pinion and ring are hardened and will do fine. If the bendix functioned well there would be no issue. The only real advantage of a wet system comes from the starter gears being always engaged (this is how it's done on four stroke bikes). The sprag clutch is continuously over-running when the engine is running. You also have a torque limiter in the system to protect the starter motor. The sprags do eventually wear but have a good enough lifespan as designed.
I think that in many cases, things like the GG estart just don't get enough testing in the design stage. The ideas in the GG system are sound, I can't put my finger on the actual problem. It could be the camming ratio that needs improvement or the actual gear tooth profile (tooth size) is too fine/small for this application.
I don't agree, think of automotive starters from years ago. Their bendix units were completely dry. Modern vehicles use shift fork actuators on the starters for better reliability; the shift mechanism forces the tooth engagement.
The GG pinion and ring are hardened and will do fine. If the bendix functioned well there would be no issue. The only real advantage of a wet system comes from the starter gears being always engaged (this is how it's done on four stroke bikes). The sprag clutch is continuously over-running when the engine is running. You also have a torque limiter in the system to protect the starter motor. The sprags do eventually wear but have a good enough lifespan as designed.
I think that in many cases, things like the GG estart just don't get enough testing in the design stage. The ideas in the GG system are sound, I can't put my finger on the actual problem. It could be the camming ratio that needs improvement or the actual gear tooth profile (tooth size) is too fine/small for this application.
GMP
Active member
Hardened gears probably, but you complain of metal shards on the flywheel. Thats why I suggested what I did. KTMs are the same thing, end up a big mess after some hours. The patent I beleive involved the horizontal positioning of the starter. Some guys have been doing a "wet conversion" on the orange bikes with good luck.
Look at the Beta RR drawings. The starter engages a gear on the flywheel, just like an automotive starter, no ring and pinon type setup. There appears to be no sprague clutch like a four stroke. It runs in the oil bath with an inverted type stator, mounted to the cover like a four stroke, so all components are sealed and lubricated just like the primary and transmission. Too new for life test but it makes complete sense and seems to perform flawlessly from all accounts.
The KTM and GG designs are just afterthoughts on old case designs and will most certainly disappear when those cases are upgraded.
Look at the Beta RR drawings. The starter engages a gear on the flywheel, just like an automotive starter, no ring and pinon type setup. There appears to be no sprague clutch like a four stroke. It runs in the oil bath with an inverted type stator, mounted to the cover like a four stroke, so all components are sealed and lubricated just like the primary and transmission. Too new for life test but it makes complete sense and seems to perform flawlessly from all accounts.
The KTM and GG designs are just afterthoughts on old case designs and will most certainly disappear when those cases are upgraded.
Appalachian Offroad
New member
Mine works really well so far but it's almost new, certainly works much better than the KTM design. Afriend has a 12 and it doesn't engage sometimes but I don't think he has taken it apart to look at it.
GMP
Active member
Neil, to me it looks just like a simple bendix setup, not always engaged, just like a car. The starter is under the engine and enters the ignition compartment under the flywheel. This and the fact that its not dependent on gaskets and shims, pretty much solves most if not all the problems. I'll try and post a pic later.
I was going to tinker with it tonight when I change the oil. First 10 or so hours I would say it engaged 90% of the time, its just been in the last 4-5 hours it started spinning some.
Can you buy rebuild kits for these starters? Pretty sure mine packed it in on the weekend. It's not throwing the bendix out 99% of the time even when hot and sometimes when it did engage it would stall the motor as if the battery was flat. New Li-on battery testing at 12.6v so it's not the battery.
It seems like mine started having issues when I went to the Li-on battery. I changed back and it worked better. As far as the KTM's, my son's '13 engages every time. Hasn't kicked out once since he got it.
E Start
Yes the main problem is the starter not engaging . It turns it over quite good once it engages but it only engages 1/2 the time . button seems to be fine so not sure what is really up. Had a tractor that had issues and it needed to be cleaned . But this doesn't even make an attempt to engage it's frustrating . I'll check all the wires maybe there is something loose or ill fitting . So anyway thanks for all the help and ideas .
Yes the main problem is the starter not engaging . It turns it over quite good once it engages but it only engages 1/2 the time . button seems to be fine so not sure what is really up. Had a tractor that had issues and it needed to be cleaned . But this doesn't even make an attempt to engage it's frustrating . I'll check all the wires maybe there is something loose or ill fitting . So anyway thanks for all the help and ideas .
If the starter motor doesn't turn, then you have an electrical issue (fuse, connection, battery).
If the starter motor turns and you have an engagement issue, then the bendix needs to be replaced (this assumes basic alignment is correct so the gears can mesh with some freeplay).
Whenever I check my bendix, it always "cams out" correctly by hand so I have not replaced it. The system still misses (starts correctly about 75% of the time).
