200 Jetting, help me sort this thing

[noobi]

Iv tryed to find some jetting specs for an 07 EC200, but im not having much luck

So, a 2007 EC200, 60 hours, stock engine
At the moment its running a 178, 50, and NBHW ( its a weird needle, the stalk of the B carries on above the letter, if that makes sense,and the W is really squashed??? ) on the 3rd clip.
40:1 motul 800 with 96 or 98
elevation is between say 0 and 1000feet most of the time, and temps range between 5degrees c and 15degrees c, its winter.

Now, iv been told that the jetting is probably too rich, so I lowered the needle, and it became less responsive from little throttle, so I raised the needle to the second from top, and this made the bike much more responsive from little throttle, I have a ledge I practice hopping onto, and I had to clutch it to get up with the leaner needle setting, but only had to pull back and open the throttle with the richer needle setting.....weird
Also, the bike smokes alot, suggesting that the bike is rich, not burning off all fuel/oil etc, and it didnt smoke on the leaner needle setting, but didnt run as well as it did on the 3rd clip(stock), and obviously it still smoked on the richer needle setting. The plug reading also suggest its rich, the plug is definitely black.
But when I made the bike richer it ran better.....!!!!!!
Gaahhhhh

 

[Brian]

Motul 800 has a really high flash point, I don't think its a very good trail riding oil. If you want to stick with Motul go with 710, much lower flash point. That is what I use. Much less spooge and smoke then 800 I have found.

 

[noobi]

Motul 800 has a really high flash point, I don't think its a very good trail riding oil. If you want to stick with Motul go with 710, much lower flash point. That is what I use. Much less spooge and smoke then 800 I have found.

Thats interesting
On a side note, does anyone have any experience with Elf 2XT, I work at a bike shop that gets it by the barrel, so it cost be around 10NZD per litre. Where as Motul 800 is 2 and a half times as expensive

 

[geoff g]

This is what worked for me............42 pilot / 178 main / NIEG needle on the middle clip / #6 slide / BR8EG plug / 50:1 Motorex Crosspower 2T / 98 octane pump fuel / Nulon octane booster.

 

[roostafish]

Don't use smoke or spooge as a jetting tool, it has very little to do with how the enginve is running. Unless the bike is horribly rich, richer is more powerful. What you described makes perfect sense to me.

The Elf oil is fine, I'd go with less money and use the Elf.

 

[noobi]

geoff g, are your hights and temperatures similar to mine??
I bought a smaller pilot, so ill put that in and see how it goes, but at the moment its running pretty well imo, so anything I change is purely academic.
And ill change that weird needle out, and compare it to the N1EG from my 125, which is retired for the time being.

roost, then what would cause the smoke? it has a piston and ring which is only 30 hours old? and it has always smoked a bit, but less when it gets hot

cheers

 

[stainlesscycle]

here's what i've found. (2000 xc200)
i'm running 50:1 amsoil dominator. 1000-2000 ft elevation. 70 degrees. when it's colder (below 50 degree it needs 1 step richer on main and pilot)
38mm carb is probably too big for the 200. needs more intake velocity to idle better. i had considered building up intake with epoxy, but it's easier to just get a smaller carb so i ordered a 36mm carb, waiting for it to arrive and see if it fixes some idle problems i have.

richer is definitely stronger until it gets horribly rich.

i have #7 slide. br8eg plug, advanced 1 degree from stock.

on my 200, when i jetted by plug reading
42 pilot, 172 main. 3rd position, 1.5 turns out. ddk needle. bike idles great, but is weak on the bottom. plug reads good color.

BUT

when i jet by seat of pants (current jetting):

48 pilot, 175 main, 3rd position 2.5 turns out, ddk needle. is much much stronger from bottom and more responsive bike. plug is black. i ride on the pipe a lot - (like always at top of rev range..) , but i think the black is the pilot. bike pulls hard from the bottom. will pull front end up with ease in first 2 gears (i'm 190lbs...if i lean back it'll pull up in 3rd and if i give it a yank and pull back 4th gear wheelie is possible....)13/52 gearing
48 pilot also smokes a bit, and can load the plug up if i just idle all day - in the tight stuff i'm constantly revving/clutching to keep it clean, which is EXTREMELY annoying during races... smoke cleans up when hot, and on the pipe..

here's the kicker:
bike refuses to idle when hot with 48 pilot. idles great with 42 pilot. but 42 pilot makes bike anemic from the bottom. idle screw has no effect, and i've resorted to lifting slide with throttle adjuster... can get it to idle, but it's almost outta pilot circuit by that point i think...

on advise from les at lt racing :
i'm hoping a 36mm carb will help. #6 or #5 slide will help too. when i get the carb later this week, i'll post my findings.. the other problem i haven't figured out yet is the 36mm carb is possibly 20mm shorter front to back, we'll see if airbox boot will stretch to fit it. also 36mm carb is possibly a bit taller (conflicting measurements at sudco and keihin..) i hope it don't hit the gas tank..

 

[geoff g]

Noobi, yes elavation and temp very similar to you, however, you do need to go slightly richer in winter and leaner in summer, I adjust this on the air screw.

 

[Rick]

Stainless>>>>when you advanced the timing....did it wake up? Can did you notice a difference?

Thanks

 

[roostafish]

roost, then what would cause the smoke? it has a piston and ring which is only 30 hours old? and it has always smoked a bit, but less when it gets hot

cheers

Smoke can be caused by the the buildup of spent oil in the expansion chamber and silencer. Using an oil with a high flashpoint like Motul 800 can exacerbate the problem. Riding a lot at low rpm will build up more residual oil in the exhaust too. When you start to rev the bike and the exhaust gets hot, some of that leftover oil burns and smokes. If you've ever really rode the bike hard for a sustained period, say, up a long hill, you can actually start a fire inside the exhaust and it will smoke really badly. You can hear the fire crackling inside the expansion chamber. It was kind of scary the first time I ever heard it, and I was concerned for all of the smoke coming out of my exhaust. It was a KTM 125, pretty much always on the pipe.

 

[stainlesscycle]

Stainless>>>>when you advanced the timing....did it wake up? Can did you notice a difference?

Thanks

you sure can feel the difference. it changes how the hit feels. advancing sacrifices a little bit of over rev though.

 

[noobi]

What does advancing the timing do to the power? give it more power low down?

 

[stainlesscycle]

advancing timing makes midrange hit harder, but you lose over rev a bit.
retarding timing smooths power delivery in midrange, and gives more overrev.

if ignition timing is set stock (on the 200 only...), it feels to me too trials like, too smooth.

be careful with advancing too far. if it pings you're too far.. i've pushed it to 3 or 4 degrees advanced and it didn't ping. but i'm not 100% comfortable with it that far advanced, so i set it back a bit.

if you advance it too far, it can be harder to start too...

make sure you mark where you're at now - there are no real timing marks on the 2k-2 or 2k-1 ignition.

here's how eric gorr describes it:
AFFECTS OF THE IGNITION TIMING
Here is how changes in the static ignition timing affects the power band of a Japanese dirt bike. Advancing the timing will make the power band hit harder in the mid range but fall flat on top end. Advancing the timing gives the flame front in the combustion chamber, adequate time to travel across the chamber to form a great pressure rise. The rapid pressure rise contributes to a power band's "Hit". In some cases the pressure rise can be so great that it causes an audible pinging noise from the engine. As the engine rpm increases, the pressure in the cylinder becomes so great that pumping losses occur to the piston. That is why engines with too much spark advance or too high of a compression ratio, run flat at high rpm.
Retarding the timing will make the power band smoother in the mid-range and give more top end over rev. When the spark fires closer to TDC, the pressure rise in the cylinder isn't as great. The emphasis is on gaining more degrees of retard at high rpm. This causes a shift of the heat from the cylinder to the pipe. This can prevent the piston from melting at high rpm, but the biggest benefit is how the heat affects the tuning in the pipe. When the temperature rises, the velocity of the waves in the pipe increases. At high rpm this can cause a closer synchronization between the returning compression wave and the piston speed. This effectively extends the rpm peak of the pipe.

 

[alkyleda]

I have a 2005 EC200 heavenly to ride I must say. I just did a new piston after approx 250 hours........I know its a long time but the bike still ran mint and pulled like a sailor. Piston was mint when she came out....just light scuffing on the front and back of the skirt. anyways I put a wossner piston in but when I pulled off the base gaskets there was a 0.5 and a 0.3 installed (bike was a spare one for a pro enduro rider). When I put it back together I put the a 0.3 and a 0.15 in. The bike goes like fury now but sucked down 10 liters of gas in 113km plus down low she burbles and farts a bit. Its got a 48p, 185m, pwk 38mm carby, running amsoil dominator 50:1,91 gas. the needle (NBHW) is second from the pointy end (I guess this is the bottom).

Any suggestions

 

[stainlesscycle]

The bike goes like fury now but sucked down 10 liters of gas in 113km plus down low she burbles and farts a bit. Its got a 48p, 185m, pwk 38mm carby, running amsoil dominator 50:1,91 gas. the needle (NBHW) is second from the pointy end (I guess this is the bottom).

Any suggestions

what's your elevation? hows the plug look? both pilot and main seem rich to me.

 

[bchatt]

If it went well before, I'd be inclined to put the same base gasket thickness back in, or at least 2 x .3. I found on my 250 that reducing the base gaskets did improve low - mid punch but at the expense of top end overrev (and we don't want that do we - might as well by a 4 stroke!)

Also, I always run on 96/98 (depending on brand). 91 gives noticably less power.

 

[alkyleda]

what's your elevation? hows the plug look? both pilot and main seem rich to me.

Elevation is near to sea level, within 50m, and the plug was black as the night is dark without a moon!

I have just had a little fiddle with the air screw...was 1 & a half turns out....tried it at 2 turns ...a little better but any further out makes no difference.
I am a bit of a fan of low down grunt as well as a screaming top end to get the blood pumping so I'm not so keen to change the base gaskets. I'm pretty sure standard is a 0.3 and a 0.15.

I will try lowering the needle 1 clip and see if that is better as the air screw seems to do jack diddly at the mo

Cheers for your suggestions tho...........GO the gasser

 

[alkyleda]

Update....... Lowered the needle 1 clip and turned air screw out to 2 turns. Its alot smoother. Lost most of the burble and farting between idle and when power band kicks in...I may drop the needle 1 more clip as it was 1 clip from the bottom to start with as there is still a little hesitation just off idle.

 

[gg3]

Thats interesting
On a side note, does anyone have any experience with Elf 2XT, I work at a bike shop that gets it by the barrel, so it cost be around 10NZD per litre. Where as Motul 800 is 2 and a half times as expensive

Hi Noobi,Hope the recovery is going well.I used ElF 2XT in my KDX's,seemed to work fine & smells great!I took a barrel into a shop to get plated & they commented on the 'gummy' residual.That was enough to scare me off,although the mechanic was surprised as he highly rated Elf.I use Motul 800 but is getting way expensive.Interesting about the 800vs700 flash point,haven't heard that before.

 

[GMP]

I couldn't care less about spooge, not a variable to me. High flash point oils blow through the motor intact for the most part, as oil. If an oil burns in the motor what happens? It creates more residue. Oil has to end up somewhere in one form or another. I run Amsoil Dominator @ 36:1, which has a high flashpoint also. I can clean my exhaust port and PV parts with a rag at teardown, thats how clean it is. Just run the best oil you can, jet the bike for performance, and if it spooges so what? My plug is dark brown to black (and in the bike for months), there is some spooge running down the bottom of my silencer, my piston looks great, engine is at 190 PSI compression @ 100 hrs, and the bike runs like an animal. If you don't absolutely need a spark arrestor, run a straight silencer, as a lot more oil will just blow through. The turbine type spark arrestors are big spooge collectors, the Stealth being the worst.