2006 EC 200 - Keihin id for standard needle

[Caravan Monster]

Can anyone help me find a 3 letter Keihin code for this needle, or it's nearest equivalent (even another OEM bike manufacturer equivalent code would be helpful). It is marked NB*HW (the 'B' looks like an upside down greek beta). The carb is PWK 38, screw top, four vent

I have the table for the N427-48 needles. To generate the Keihin code, we need Taper (degrees) | L1 (mm) (top clip to end of first taper?) | straight section diameter (mm)

I'm getting 2.84mm for the straight section diameter, but can't find a distinct end of the first taper for the L1 measurement, and have no idea how to measure the angle of the taper (which taper anyway ? - I think there are 2, if not 3 different tapers on this needle.

The objective is to lean out fuelling in the half throttle region. Small and wide open throttle is good. I suspect the standard needle may be worn, so aim to replace with an equivalent, and also try a needle that is a touch leaner in the middle. Mechanically, everything is good, ring gaps well within spec, 1.5mm squish, pv adjustment done, 50:1 fully synth mixture.

It's a tricky problem to resolve because the UK Keihin importer only deals in 3 letter code needles, and GGUK seem to have stopped answering the phone, so any help would be much appreciated. I've found a couple of interesting things with this overhaul, including getting a strong tickover without winding the tickover screw right in and will write it up when the needle problem is resolved.

 

[Rick]

Can anyone help me find a 3 letter Keihin code for this needle, or it's nearest equivalent (even another OEM bike manufacturer equivalent code would be helpful). It is marked NB*HW (the 'B' looks like an upside down greek beta). The carb is PWK 38, screw top, four vent

I have the table for the N427-48 needles. To generate the Keihin code, we need Taper (degrees) | L1 (mm) (top clip to end of first taper?) | straight section diameter (mm)

I'm getting 2.84mm for the straight section diameter, but can't find a distinct end of the first taper for the L1 measurement, and have no idea how to measure the angle of the taper (which taper anyway ? - I think there are 2, if not 3 different tapers on this needle.

The objective is to lean out fuelling in the half throttle region. Small and wide open throttle is good. I suspect the standard needle may be worn, so aim to replace with an equivalent, and also try a needle that is a touch leaner in the middle. Mechanically, everything is good, ring gaps well within spec, 1.5mm squish, pv adjustment done, 50:1 fully synth mixture.

It's a tricky problem to resolve because the UK Keihin importer only deals in 3 letter code needles, and GGUK seem to have stopped answering the phone, so any help would be much appreciated. I've found a couple of interesting things with this overhaul, including getting a strong tickover without winding the tickover screw right in and will write it up when the needle problem is resolved.

Is this what your looking for?> https://www.google.com/search?q=kei...dInWzt3GM:&usg=__xFZgvGpYwQLVfkqoOwKcQexAPP8=

 

[Caravan Monster]

Thanks Rick, the trouble I'm having is using the measurements in that table. There is no clear point on my needle to measure the L1 from (L1 measurements are to twentieth mm). Also, I have no idea how to go about accurately measuring the angle of the taper(s).

There's not much data on the web for the EC200, but I'm hoping someone out there has been in the same situation of needing to replace the GG oem needle and knows of an equivalent Keihin item. Or even another manufacturer oem (say Kawasaki or Suzuki) item that is a good match.

The Keihin importer told me that the NBHW needle I have was most probably manufactured by Keihin to a specification from GG, but he had no idea of the meaning of the NBHW code, or how it would relate to a 3 letter keihin code.

 

[MJC]

Can anyone help me find a 3 letter Keihin code for this needle, or it's nearest equivalent (even another OEM bike manufacturer equivalent code would be helpful). It is marked NB*HW (the 'B' looks like an upside down greek beta). The carb is PWK 38, screw top, four vent

I have the table for the N427-48 needles. To generate the Keihin code, we need Taper (degrees) | L1 (mm) (top clip to end of first taper?) | straight section diameter (mm)

I'm getting 2.84mm for the straight section diameter, but can't find a distinct end of the first taper for the L1 measurement, and have no idea how to measure the angle of the taper (which taper anyway ? - I think there are 2, if not 3 different tapers on this needle.

The objective is to lean out fuelling in the half throttle region. Small and wide open throttle is good. I suspect the standard needle may be worn, so aim to replace with an equivalent, and also try a needle that is a touch leaner in the middle. Mechanically, everything is good, ring gaps well within spec, 1.5mm squish, pv adjustment done, 50:1 fully synth mixture.

It's a tricky problem to resolve because the UK Keihin importer only deals in 3 letter code needles, and GGUK seem to have stopped answering the phone, so any help would be much appreciated. I've found a couple of interesting things with this overhaul, including getting a strong tickover without winding the tickover screw right in and will write it up when the needle problem is resolved.

Take another look at that needle you have . I bet it's an N8RW needle, which would make it a duel taper needle with the same taper profile as Yam/KTM N3EW needle, but 1/2 richer and a full clip richer than the N3CW version.

The 4th letter on all of the OEM's Keihin needles have the same meaning , which is the starting diameter, with the exception of Honda. They just list the starting diameter right in their code. That would make the above needle W needle a 2.735 starting diameter.

With that said, I would use a triple taper Kawasaki needle in your 200. I would start out with an N3WH in #3, a 45 pilot and a 175 main.

When using the 3 digit single taper Keihin needle you are going to want to start out with a richer starting diameter than you would with the multi taper needles. with the end needing to richer as well for the most part. Using the Keihin single taper needles for your 200 I would start out with a CEK in #3 with a 48/50 and a 182/180 main.

I know the Kawasaki needle is a little more expensive, but I think it will be worth it, It's where I would start out.

 

[Caravan Monster]

Thanks for the reply MJC.

The needle is definitely as I described, the 'B' symbol is very distinct from the other letters. I've sent it to allens performance who were kind enough to offer to try and find a matching keihin needle. I take your point about the 3 taper needles being superior to the single taper Keihin 3 letter code items, especially bearing in mind that the N'B'HW looked to have more than one taper.

I'll order an N3WH from Kawasaki and give it a go. Any idea if the old Honda two strokes used triple tapers worth trying ? (there's a honda mx parts store 10 minutes away from me)

 

[MJC]

Thanks for the reply MJC.

The needle is definitely as I described, the 'B' symbol is very distinct from the other letters. I've sent it to allens performance who were kind enough to offer to try and find a matching keihin needle. I take your point about the 3 taper needles being superior to the single taper Keihin 3 letter code items, especially bearing in mind that the N'B'HW looked to have more than one taper.

I'll order an N3WH from Kawasaki and give it a go. Any idea if the old Honda two strokes used triple tapers worth trying ? (there's a honda mx parts store 10 minutes away from me)

Any of the Honda needle jets that I would recommend to you are obsolete.

A Yamaha/KTM N3EH needle would also be another option. It's a duel taper needle, that will probable need a 1 step richer pilot and main than the Kawasaki needle i sugested.

1--http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/oem-parts/kawasaki/1997/kx250/carburetor/needle_jet%2cn3wh-%7c-%28option%29/16009-1918

2--http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/oem-parts/yamaha/2012/yz250/carburetor/needle-%28n3eh%29-%7c-ap/4sr-14916-eh-00

 

[Caravan Monster]

Thanks again MJC. I'm getting somewhere now: the N3WH is on order from Kawasaki and I have also got hold of a Honda R1369NS (forum member 32:1 wrote about it). With 45 slow, 180 main, 3rd clip, initial test indicated good results. I'll give the bike a good workout tomorrow and report back.

 

[Caravan Monster]

Tried the Kawasaki N3WH, but couldn't get it anywhere near right. Having better luck with the Honda R1369NS, 3rd clip, 50 slow and 180 main. Seems rich, particularly on the slow, but it still needs choke to start from cold. The odd result I'm getting is that the air screw seems to be redundant. I would normally get the bike up to temperature, and with it ticking over, wind the air screw out to highest rpm, then back in 1/8 turn. Having tried everything from #38 to #50, air screw remains ineffective. Wound the air screw out to 1 1/2 turns and left it alone. Happily, the practical result is that it pulls well through the range and doesn't run hot, even with 13/48 gearing in the mud. Fuel economy of around 80 miles to a tank on 13/48 at trail riding pace.

Tickover isn't that strong and sometimes stalls out (there is a lot of opening and closing gates on the trails in my part of the UK).

I'm still not sure this engine is 100% 'right'. Squish at 1.58 mm is with no base gasket, so the port timing might be off. I'm not familiar with setting port timing, any suggestions on that or anything else to check ?

Getting sick of messing with jets

 

[Anders]

Getting sick of messing with jets

The Lectron is always an option. It works very well on my 06 EC200. In fact it works so well that I consider moving it to the 15 EC200 instead of starting tinkering with the jets there.

 

[Caravan Monster]

The Lectron might be worth a try. The EC200 is a brilliant bike, but I've never been able to get the jetting 100% right in several years of ownership. tbh, it sometimes has me wishing for a four stroke with easy to set up fcr carb or fuel injection Concentrate on going riding, not messing with jets would be good.

 

[firffighter]

I would strongly suggest doing the RB carb mod for your 200. I did it on my EC200 and it was worth every penny. You get much better throttle response throughout the entire range, zero blubbering, better fuel economy and easier starting. Ron's been doing these mods forever and if you research you cannot find one dissatisfied customer.

I'd suggest adding his easy turn fuel airscrew to add and your right around $200. Great buy and no more jetting issues.

http://www.rb-designs.com/rb_designs_llc_008.htm

Heck, add the head mod and you'll be even happier

 

[Caravan Monster]

I did contact RB, but it isn't really practicable to send my carb on a two way trip over the atlantic

 

[firffighter]

I bet if you layout a shipping plan for him, he'd do it. International shipping is easy through our US postal service.

Gonna cost a bit more, but worth it for the results from Ron's work.

 

[Caravan Monster]

The Lectron is always an option. It works very well on my 06 EC200. In fact it works so well that I consider moving it to the 15 EC200 instead of starting tinkering with the jets there.

And we have a winner !!

Went for a 38mm Lectron and it is excellent. Fitted it, went trail riding and am very pleased. The way it holds a steady throttle better than the Keihin makes riding on surfaced roads a lot more tolerable. It also helps on really slick mud where consistent and very controllable throttle keeps you moving more efficiently than on / off throttle. Also revs out better than the Keihin.
I haven't measured fuel consumption, but it looks to be in the same ball park as the Keihin. Tickover isn't perfect and I might try it 1/4 turn leaner on the metering rod, but overall, the Lectron is a worthwhile investment, making the bike even more enjoyable to ride

 

[Tbucket]

That is so good to know. I also have a 200 but mine runs really good. But will keep it in mind for the future. Now is time to enjoy it

 

[Tbucket]

You should also post your specs on the 200 club for future references.