300 or 250

[yowie05]

I've had to rebuild the bottom end of my 04 EC300. I bought a 250 cylinder and head CDI and a heap of other parts from a member here. Wondering if i should leave it as a 300 or go to a 250? Advantages of both? I don't race, just a weekend warrior that like tight single and some harder hill climbs. Either way I have to buy a new piston and before buying i need to decide which way to go. I know Jakobi went from 300 to 250 would be good to have your input.
TIA

 

[Jakobi]

Seeing as you asked for my input.. I'll reply

The 250 is a pain in the arse for "some harder hill climbs".. The 300 will lug down and let you recover from your poor technique. The 250 will still lug down, but not as well. Obviously harder hill climb is relative to the individual, but I have managed to ride others 300's up hills that have challenged me on my 250.

The advantage of the 250 is in the flowing terrain. It is happier to rev, a bit less punchy off the bottom, with more of a snappy upper rpm delivery. I like the softer bottom end in the slippery conditions I often ride. I like that it encourages me to carry more momentum and use the clutch to apply whatever power I need.

Overall I think the 250 rewards a rider who isn't shy to use the throttle and abuse the clutch. I like throttle, and I found too much throttle on a 300 wore me out.

On a plus, I've been able to source 250 pistons cheaper than 300's. On a minus, I've been able to wear 250 pistons out a bit sooner.

The 250 does seem to vibrate a fair bit less (through the bars and pegs), but a trued crank would probably see the larger capacity showing improvements over stock too.

End of the day, it's personal preference. One is not better than the other.

 

[shawbagga]

300 if tight techy single with big hills. 250 will frustrate you on gnarly hills but on flowing trails & for racing is much better IMHO. Still well capable on hill climbs & tight techy stuff but ya just miss that bit of extra off idle grunt the 300s have.

 

[Doc Brown]

Being old and not a racer I was faster with the 300 everywhere, whether super gnarly stuff or wide flowing terrain.

I didnt like the 250 though it revs a bit faster and has less vibes. Its probably the better bike for fast riders. It steers quicker and needs less input, feels way lighter though it isn't.
The 300 shines with its grunt and if used right you ride on a wave of torque that seems to be endless.

300 for me, no doubt.

 

[Zman]

I agree with all of the info provided but since you have both top ends, you can try it and see for yourself. The swap will take you about 1hr if the bike is already clean.

 

[yowie05]

Awesome stuff guys thanks heaps for the input. Great points Jakobi thx. By the sounds of it I really should leave it as a 300 due to my riding style and terrain that I like, plus being an older(read unfit/lazy) rider. Think I'll get it running again as a 300 and after a few rides I might drop it to the 250 to see how it feels. Again thanks for the input

 

[GASGASCWB]

I've had to rebuild the bottom end of my 04 EC300. I bought a 250 cylinder and head CDI and a heap of other parts from a member here. Wondering if i should leave it as a 300 or go to a 250? Advantages of both? I don't race, just a weekend warrior that like tight single and some harder hill climbs. Either way I have to buy a new piston and before buying i need to decide which way to go. I know Jakobi went from 300 to 250 would be good to have your input.
TIA

I already had an 250 enduro bike and also a BIG BORE 360!
Both 2 STROKES!!!
BIG BORE always!

 

[Thompo]

I have a 2011 250 which I like but after riding my mates 300 it suits my riding style better. Im not fast/ committed enough to use the topend of the 250 so I find it much more comfortable hence quicker using the low/mid of the 300. Rarely get higher than 3rd gear unless on forest roads over here.

Mate found the bottom on the 300 too much for him so he is taking my 250 bits, he is less likely to use the powerband on the 250 than I was but prefers the softer bottom.

 

[SS109]

I guess I'll be the odd man out here and choose the 250. Love it everywhere and gnarly hill climbs have never been a problem. I like the 250 more when I get tired as there is less chance of whisky throttle yet the power is still there if I need it.

 

[sneaky98gt]

I guess I'll be the odd man out here and choose the 250. Love it everywhere and gnarly hill climbs have never been a problem. I like the 250 more when I get tired as there is less chance of whisky throttle yet the power is still there if I need it.

Not just you. I've ridden quite a handful of 300s (KTMs of several years, Betas, Sherco, though oddly never a GG), and I still prefer my 250.

In my experiences, the 250 is more "flickable" (a.k.a. "feels" lighter), smoother, less buzzy, and has more "zip" than a 300, but in a much more linear, controllable way; it just feels less fatiguing to ride. That said, it doesn't make any less total power; I've had many drag races with buddies that have 300s, and none of them have been any significant amount faster or slower than my 250.

The 300s do seem to make just a bit more torque at the very bottom end of the rpm range. Many people like this, as it allows them to be lazier on the clutch. However, this is probably the biggest reason I like the 250 better. My 250 still makes a gracious plenty amount of low end torque, but it's just soft enough that, at a minimum, you have to cover and be ready to use the clutch at any time.

I am a HUGE proponent of learning how to properly use the clutch. Take, for example, lofting the front, or aiding your slow speed balance, or double-blipping, or pivot turning. The key to doing all those things, along with countless other enduro skills, is proper clutch control; the throttle is just secondary in those techniques. And I think that extra torque from a 300 makes the riders a little too "lazy" on the clutch, which hurts them in the long term when they don't know how to properly use it. The 250 'forces the issue' a little bit, thereby not really giving you a choice in whether or not to learn how to use it.

Of course, this is coming from my perspective of enduro / hard enduro. If all someone ever rides is doubletrack or flowy singletrack, then really knowing how to use the clutch doesn't really matter quite as much. The terrain you ride and your personal preference probably plays a bigger role in the choice as anything.

 

[Jakobi]

Not just you. I've ridden quite a handful of 300s (KTMs of several years, Betas, Sherco, though oddly never a GG), and I still prefer my 250.

In my experiences, the 250 is more "flickable" (a.k.a. "feels" lighter), smoother, less buzzy, and has more "zip" than a 300, but in a much more linear, controllable way; it just feels less fatiguing to ride. That said, it doesn't make any less total power; I've had many drag races with buddies that have 300s, and none of them have been any significant amount faster or slower than my 250.

The 300s do seem to make just a bit more torque at the very bottom end of the rpm range. Many people like this, as it allows them to be lazier on the clutch. However, this is probably the biggest reason I like the 250 better. My 250 still makes a gracious plenty amount of low end torque, but it's just soft enough that, at a minimum, you have to cover and be ready to use the clutch at any time.

I am a HUGE proponent of learning how to properly use the clutch. Take, for example, lofting the front, or aiding your slow speed balance, or double-blipping, or pivot turning. The key to doing all those things, along with countless other enduro skills, is proper clutch control; the throttle is just secondary in those techniques. And I think that extra torque from a 300 makes the riders a little too "lazy" on the clutch, which hurts them in the long term when they don't know how to properly use it. The 250 'forces the issue' a little bit, thereby not really giving you a choice in whether or not to learn how to use it.

Of course, this is coming from my perspective of enduro / hard enduro. If all someone ever rides is doubletrack or flowy singletrack, then really knowing how to use the clutch doesn't really matter quite as much. The terrain you ride and your personal preference probably plays a bigger role in the choice as anything.

Totally agree! Well said..

Before I went down the 2T path I was on a 250F while many friends were doing the 450/500/575 big bore action. Same concepts in use.. The smaller engine with soft bottom end torque means that carrying momentum, using throttle and clutch to get the power you need when you need it, learning skills... compared to sticking it in 3rd and rolling on the throttle.

I'm no gun rider.. but I feel like I have learnt more because of it.

 

[GasGas]

Totally agree! Well said..

Before I went down the 2T path I was on a 250F while many friends were doing the 450/500/575 big bore action. Same concepts in use.. The smaller engine with soft bottom end torque means that carrying momentum, using throttle and clutch to get the power you need when you need it, learning skills... compared to sticking it in 3rd and rolling on the throttle.

I'm no gun rider.. but I feel like I have learnt more because of it.

I agree with the above comments for sure. After spending 5 years on the GG 125 and transferring those skills over to a 250 2t it was a weapon for sure. But like most things once you learn proper technique, you generally keep it. So transfer those same skills over to a 300 and you have something! You would be amazed what you can make a 300 do with less work than a 250 or just a bit better than on the 250. Or just less tired at the end of a long ride/race. They are both great displacements, but anyone I know that goes 300 never returns to the 250. Even though I enjoyed all 350 hours I put on my 250, it was a stepping stone. Now on my 3rd 300. I also think age, fitness and body size play a role too.

 

[stabak]

For me, coming from a 300 to a 2nd 250, the key words are rhythm and momentum.

I don't get why older people prefer the 300 when in fact it is more tiring than a 250 and less forgiving. For sure on a 250 you'll have to use the clutch more but to me that is also part of the sport and keeping control. Sportier riding means better technique/stamina and skills which eventually will lead to the 300jarvis nirvana but till then I'd rather be on a smaller displacement

 

[Moto7man]

I have a 2011 300 Gasser and a 94 CR 250 with a 96 cylinder. My CR is broad,smooth and fast and a beast through the power band depending on how hard you twist the throttle.It just pulls everywhere. At whiskey throttle things happen very fast with both.Both have auto clutches and engine wise, I have no idea which one I like better.

 

[Zman]

That is probably because the engines are very similar. When Eric Gorr mapped my cylinder for porting work he told me the GasGas 300 and 250 Cylinders were copies of the mid 90s Honda CR250 cylinder. They also share the same power valve design and parts.

 

[Moto7man]

That is probably because the engines are very similar. When Eric Gorr mapped my cylinder for porting work he told me the GasGas 300 and 250 Cylinders were copies of the mid 90s Honda CR250 cylinder. They also share the same power valve design and parts.

Very cool!

 

[Moto7man]

That is probably because the engines are very similar. When Eric Gorr mapped my cylinder for porting work he told me the GasGas 300 and 250 Cylinders were copies of the mid 90s Honda CR250 cylinder. They also share the same power valve design and parts.

Very cool!

 

[SS109]

That is probably because the engines are very similar. When Eric Gorr mapped my cylinder for porting work he told me the GasGas 300 and 250 Cylinders were copies of the mid 90s Honda CR250 cylinder. They also share the same power valve design and parts.

Yup! When I rebuilt my '05 250 I used a Honda CR250 connecting rod and piston.

 

[Moto7man]

Yup! When I rebuilt my '05 250 I used a Honda CR250 connecting rod and piston.

That is really interesting. I had heard about the rod but I didn?t know the piston would fit.

 

[Jakobi]

I agree with the above comments for sure. After spending 5 years on the GG 125 and transferring those skills over to a 250 2t it was a weapon for sure. But like most things once you learn proper technique, you generally keep it. So transfer those same skills over to a 300 and you have something! You would be amazed what you can make a 300 do with less work than a 250 or just a bit better than on the 250. Or just less tired at the end of a long ride/race. They are both great displacements, but anyone I know that goes 300 never returns to the 250. Even though I enjoyed all 350 hours I put on my 250, it was a stepping stone. Now on my 3rd 300. I also think age, fitness and body size play a role too.

I started with a 2010 300. Then added an S3 head and tidied the ports up. Then went to a race ported 250 cylinder with a custom head insert and tighter squish. Next was a brand new 2013 250 with head work done early.. Now on a 2018 250 with head milled before first ride.

I still get to throw a leg over 300's when I want.. and I agree it does a lot of things easier than the 250.. but I don't find it as fun. Plus a 300 costs more to register, more to roll out the door, more for pistons, and you could argue may or may not wear out the drive line (sprockets, chains, tyres, etc) a bit quicker too.. depending how you ride.

It's all personal preference.. and depends a lot on what you are trying to achieve too. Don't see many 250's doing the really technical international enduros... there's a reason for it.