450 won't start please help

Oldcow said:
I am only good at basic maintenance on my bike so it looks like I will have to take it to the dealer as the problem is getting worst. Forgive my ignorance but what does the "technoresearch VSTDS software" do? and if I left those wires plugged in, the bike would not run as strong correct?
thanks
Click to expand...

The Techoresearch software is a diagnostic tool for fuel injected bikes. It can show readouts of injection sensors, list fault codes and show some other gauges, like rpm. It can also perform tests of various components aswell as adjust overall fuel trim.

http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/VDSTS-Motorbike/VDSTS_Motorbike_Features.htm
There are some screenshots too.

Bike would not run as strong with cable connected, but if you have an overly rich mix(due to whatever problem) then connecting them would make the bike start and run better. That would then indicate that the bike really has a problem in the fuel mix area. With the VDSTS software you can verify the functionality of all your sensors.

Don't know if this has been up before, but have you checked that the restrictor plate is removed from in front of air filter?

Oh, I had another problem with my '05 this monday, after 8 hours of hard riding in the weekend. The bike just wouldn't fire. Starter turned very good. Spark turned out to be weak and irratic. Problem was a burned out high voltage winding of the spark plug/ignition coll assembly.
 
Last edited:
bergerhag said:
Oh, I had another problem with my '05 this monday, after 8 hours of hard riding in the weekend. The bike just wouldn't fire. Starter turned very good. Spark turned out to be weak and irratic. Problem was a burned out high voltage winding of the spark plug/ignition coll assembly.
Click to expand...

The first thing one needs to do is check for fuel, then spark. Of course being a newbie, I checked gas but not spark until I read this Berg. The spark was erratic and is now non existent. I talked to Nick in Nevada and he suggested I clean and grease all of the connectors which I did but still no spark. Is the coil part of the spark plug cap? Where should I go next? At least I think I found the problem :) . What is this "a burned out high voltage winding of the spark plug/ignition coll assembly"?
 
The spark plug cap IS the ignition coil if it looks anything like the one on the pic.
attachment.php



An igniton coil has two windings:
  1. primary coil, low voltage(12V)
  2. secondary coil, high voltage(~25kV)

For the primary coil, the normal ohm readouts using an ordinary multimeter would be 0.9 ohm to 1.6 ohm measured between pin one and three on the coil/cap connector. That is the blue markings on the wiring diagram.

for the secondary coil(winding), a normal readout would fall in the
range of 5 to 10 kohm's measured between the spark plug connection point and one of the two pins 1 or 3. That's the red markings.
attachment.php


My broken coil has no connection at all from the spark plug connector to any of the pins, it's an open circuit. That means the spark must not only jump the plug gap, but also the gap in the broken coil. Since the wire diameter is so small in the secondary coil the spark produced within the coil would(I assume) gradually eat away the wire ends until the spark kan no longer jump the gaps.

For me, I can only get a spark using the kick starter, or when releasing the e-button. As long as the starter motor is running the coil fails to produce a spark. I have sometimes before the complete breakdown of this unit manage to get the bike running when releasing the e-button.

My local dealer order a new coil for me, and the importer managed somehow to send me yet another defective unit. :mad: :mad: So I have still no reference measurements from a functioning coil, hence my other thread on the coil-on-plug readouts
 

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A little disclaimer: I have not managed to get it verified that this new type of coil is actually possible to ohm test on the secondary side. Anyone?
 
Don't run away and buy a new coil immediately, oldcow. Got my bike running today.

I only got a spark when I released the e-button, but once I got a spark that jumped more than 1.5 cm(more than half an inch) without plug in the plug cap. That's when i realized it cannot be a coil issue.

:o :o :o :o

Turned out I had a loose battery connection!!!

Sorry 'bout all the fuzz.
 
I don't have a 450 but I'm very familiar now with tuning a Magnetti Marelli ECU on a Ducati using the VDST. In general you don't want to touch the idle speed as a means of tuning. The idle speed should be set to a certain value of throttle angle on the VDST, and the ECU calibrated to it using the utility. You set the trim and balance with the air screw for a clean idle, ideally using a gas tester for 4-6% CO. I assume the GG has an air bleed screw. If the GG throttle body and procedure is different then please correct me.
 
I might get this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Gastester-portable-powered-exhaust-analyzer/dp/B000RT8ER0

You can do a decent job without one if you take your time and think about what is going on. For example, my Ducati started out with a closed loop ECU/lambda sensor. This forces a 14.7:1 AFR. I have the VDST so I can see the actual pulse width. What I did was install a DP ECU (open loop, no lambda, trimable). I assumed a target AFR of 13.2 would be good, a fuel increase of about 11%, so I increased the pulse width by 11% with the trimmer. Bike starts better, idles better, smoother throttle, no more exhaust fart on decel.
 
bergerhag said:
Don't run away and buy a new coil immediately, oldcow. Got my bike running today.

I only got a spark when I released the e-button, but once I got a spark that jumped more than 1.5 cm(more than half an inch) without plug in the plug cap. That's when i realized it cannot be a coil issue.

:o :o :o :o

Turned out I had a loose battery connection!!!

Sorry 'bout all the fuzz.
Click to expand...
Too late, I got one today. At this point I am not convince the original was bad. can spark be checked without the electronics plugged into the gas tank? I checked all the connectors again, some I did not know about behind the fairing and the main one with the 30 amp fuses. Is one of those a spare? Then I left the bike attached to the battery charger. I finally got it started and it seems to restart better with the charger on. Sooooooooo, could the culprit be a weak battery? I will take it out in the am around town and see if it starts when warm. It seems better in the garage but I would rather try it in town then 50 kms in the woods. The battery is 2 or 3 years old, it should probably be changed anyway.
 
I am truly sorry that i tricked you into buying parts you don't need. :(
If it is any comfort to you, I got a new coil too.Really expensive was it.

At least we are helping out the Gasgas factory(and all middle men) to stay in business. ;)

Again, I'm sorry.
 
bergerhag said:
I am truly sorry that i tricked you into buying parts you don't need. :(
If it is any comfort to you, I got a new coil too.Really expensive was it.

At least we are helping out the Gasgas factory(and all middle men) to stay in business. ;)

Again, I'm sorry.
Click to expand...

No worries, it's all a learning experience for me.
 
stay_upright said:
Check the thermostat - this went on my mates bike and was near impossible to start from cold. Was OK when hot though but yours may have failed the other way around.

There's a good chance you could buy a longer kickstart as well but to be honest if you've completely flattened the battery trying to start it then you have less chance with the kickstart - also the battery needs some juice to allow it to be kickstarted to prime the fuel pump I believe.
Click to expand...

Does the thermostat regulate the amount of fuel pumped depending on the temperature of the engine? I am only familiar with a thermostat on a car. I need to check all possibilities at this point. I am also getting the valves checked.
 
Actually you have a thermostat on the front of the cylinder head, all it dows is regulate water flow. At the left rear of the cylinder head is a temp sensor, it is used together with the air temp sensor and throttle position sensor to regulate fuel supply to the engine.

Get bike to someone with the VDSTS software, it will tell you right away if there is anything wrong with your sensors. Or buy it for yourself.
 
Jim Cook said:
Sorry to intrude, but...
Just in case anyone is interested, I have the Magnetti Marelli MotorBike Diagnostic Program (including all the disks, and also loaded into a laptop).
It sure makes having a GasGas 4-stroke much easier to work on.

If anyone is interested in purchasing this, I would like to sell it.

Thanks,

Jim
Click to expand...

Hey Jim, is this what is known as VDSTS s/w? Do I also need a cable or just any old USB cable works?
 
The vdsts is not all that expensive, $195.

Maybe saturday I can ohm test my temp sensors, then at least you have something to work with.
 
I took out the temp sensor and made a few measurments uing a steak thermometer as reference. Senor is of type NTC.

Deg Centigrade, kOhms
10, 6.1
30, 2.7
45, 1.7
65, 0.85
80, 0.44
87, 0.35
 
I was rereading this thread, and feel prompted to add a few things.

First:
The "Throttle Position" is the thing I have found to most adversely affect starting when it gets just a small bit off. Just a degree or two off will cause extremely hard starting. (I found that the richer "trim" to not affect starting at all, when everything else is correct.) The diagnostic program will tell you exactly where these setting are on the bike, and what they are after adjustment.
The idle setting should be between 1600 and 1700 rpm, which also didn't have any effect on starting with the GG 4-strokes I worked with.
Likewise, I didn't notice any difference in starting ease with the (mentioned) wires unplugged (with the injection in the richer map).


Second:
If one jumpstarts a motorcycle from a larger vehicle (car or truck, for example), the other vehicle should not be running. This is the only way it could damage the system, is if the "donor battery" is being charged by an alternator at the time of use. (The motorcycle will normally only draw what it needs from another battery, as long as it isn't being "force fed" by a charger (alternator, etc).

Third:
No GasGas kickstand was ever designed to support the bike and the rider while kickstarting the bike. Anyone who does this is asking for a failure of the kickstand mount.

These are my experiences, not the absolute last word. If an expert proves me incorrect, I will revise my opinions.

Good Riding!

Jim
 
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