Another KYB SSS Thread - 2013 EC250R

[twowheels]

Hey guys, back from the hospital and encouraged - it seems like my little girl has chosen to fight for it and she looks to be making measurable gains. Keep praying though, we're not out of the woods yet. Wait, I should use a different analogy, because after this week I can't wait to get back in the woods.

As to the axle, yes the YZ would be aesthetically preferred, but the way I measured it in order to have adequate clearance inside the brake side lug I needed to use the WR axle. The brake side lug isn't bored straight through, and you can run into an issue with the shoulder just beyond the axle threads bottoming out on the fork lug. This would be an issue in that the hub could essentially float laterally instead of being trapped as it should be on the axle.

The thought crossed my mind to attempt to machine the axle, but then the litigation side of my brain took over. Look inside an axle and you'll see a bunch of steps and I wasn't confident in the integrity of the part if I machined it down just aft of the threads. Lopping off the other side would have eliminated the internal hex - certainly an opportunity if you wanted to take it, but lately I've been mulling over threading in the axle from the right leg (non-brake side) as a means to to improve alignment. If the CRF axle works and looks better, by all means

The spacers themselves were hand-spun and then hard-coated (not really a coating, but actually an oxidation process) to levels that the US military finds acceptable. Hopefully they are tough enough for GasGas use

Let me know how they work out.

 

[Jakobi]

Is there a reason why you want a shorter axel (other than aesthetics)?

One thing I have noticed is that I cannot see any noticeable "float" on the rhs shaft when tightening up. Not sure if this is because the kyb's are a much tighter package than the extremely wobbly (at full extension) Sachs that k am used to where I could slide the fork bottom a couple of mm either way when trying to get proper fork alignment. Or is this due to the spacer sitting slightly inside the fork bottom?

Nah, just my OCD Matt.

I agree no to 1mm float on the side opposite the brake. I have measured everything up and it sits true though with no binding or alignment issues.

Steve, you may be able to help out here. Above you spoke of the brake side bottoming in the lug. Basically we have to do this to ensure the clearance on the opposite side due to the way the spacer sits in the lug. Do you recommend leaving more of the shoulder (larger OD part) out on that side, and then following normal procedure to do up the pinch bolts and then torque the nut, or were you just torquing the axle nut against the axle as it bottoms in the brake side lug, leaving minimal hanging out the other side?

I got mine fitted up today on the 2013 chasis. I still get some ocassional minor contact of the shroud against the wear ring on the brake side. I'll probably look at putting a big zip tie on as a safety buffer. Granted my forks were brand new they had a bucket load of stiction still, but after 10min they felt like they were freeing up.

Initial run was comp 12, rebound 10, fork flush with the upper triple. Felt like it sat up too high and a bit alien. I always ran around 9mm through the triples with the Sachs/Marzocchis. I came out to 15 on the comp and its nice and supple, yet firms up well. Off drops its quite smooth and controlled and I still haven't bottomed it even with 310ml of oil so looks promising.

Quick pitstop and pushed the forks through 5mm and back out. It felt much more like I'm used to. Then called it quits. Brought rebound out to 12 for next ride as I think it could sit up some more down through rooted declines, amd to balance the front to rear on vertical step-up/lips/ledges.

All in all, very pleased with how they ride, but I'm yet to get out of 2nd gear so real testing to come.

 

[swazi_matt]

thinking about it now. The forks will be automatically aligned (with faith in Steves measurements) because they but up against the spacers so they can only float away from the spacer. Make sense?

nice news for a friday Steve!!

 

[twowheels]

Nah, just my OCD Matt.

Steve, you may be able to help out here. Above you spoke of the brake side bottoming in the lug. Basically we have to do this to ensure the clearance on the opposite side due to the way the spacer sits in the lug. Do you recommend leaving more of the shoulder (larger OD part) out on that side, and then following normal procedure to do up the pinch bolts and then torque the nut, or were you just torquing the axle nut against the axle as it bottoms in the brake side lug, leaving minimal hanging out the other side?

When you put the assembly together and tighten the nut you're basically sandwiching everything together from the shoulder on the axle on the non-disk side in this order - right side spacer, bearing, crush tube, left side bearing, left side spacer, left side fork lug. If the shoulder on the axle on the left hand side (just down stream of the threads) were to contact the inside of the left hand fork lug you'd have lateral slop in the system and your bearings wouldn't be preloaded.

Set up correctly the rotor should be centered in the gap of the fixed caliper hanger.

 

[Jakobi]

Roger that. So its important to not simply push the axle in as far as it will go or this could happen.

End of the day though, no slop is all good.

 

[Jakobi]

When are you going for a ride Matt? Looking forward to how the -3mm offset feels on the 2010 chasis. Its noticable on the 2013, but in a good way I think. The front feels heavier and more planted, dare I say more on rails than it was before. Once its tipped in it feels quite sharp and precise. I'm hoping this doesn't translate into requiring too much input once the pace comes up.

 

[swazi_matt]

Ok my riding buddy ditched me at the last minute so I went out on my own and did about 30km. Didn't push it as I was on my own but this setup is so much better than the Sachs.
I could not notice any negative changes to handling (re offset etc). Bike went where it was supposed to and didn't deflect. I did realize that I have been using the Sachs dive to assist cornering - hit the brakes, bike dives and turns tighter (possible? Or is there a change with the kyb?)

Forks are not diving like the Sachs going down steep rock steps and just float over the rock gardens and I now understand the term feedback - I know what is ha76023051ppening on the ground but it is not turned into harshness on my hand
Forks are a big improvement on our grass climbs (the tufts seem to grow into ridges about 10cm high and about 20-30 cm apart) but still struggling a bit bouncing around there.
And I noticed that I still have about 90mm of unused fork travel at the end of the ride

My biggest task now is to get the rear to work as well as the front

I did wind it along the forest track on the way home and I did not feel scared like I did on the sachs
It was too hot to do any testing with clickers and I was also enjoying the ride

 

[Jakobi]

Funny! Your feedback matches mine to a tee.

What rate springs do you have up front? I have found these are a bit firmer than my TTX carts, and Marzocchis. But they do have .46kg/mm springs and 22Nm ICS springs. I'm used to the feedback and would say even on first revalve they're as good as anything else I've ridden. I have a few issues with the front wanting to climb out of rocky downhill ruts, but everywhere else was pretty good. As you have said, its highlighted what could be improved at the back end.

PS. I did 90+ km of mixed terrain. Was stinking hot and humid though so hard to tell what was poor fitness and technique on my part and what the fork could have done better. Nothing scary though, no spikes, and no deflection, at any pace from 1st gear to 6th.

 

[lonetree]

finally got mine all fitted up using yam triples and forks from a 07 YZF 250. everything looks to line up well.
fork feel REALLY stiff and have heaps of sticktion.... going to give it a test ride first to see how the steering feels, then look into springs and valving....
Jake if you have any good starting points it would be good.... forks are stock as but used.
anyone got any good leads on a cart/fork cap tool.?

 

[Jakobi]

Happy to share some stacks with you Tyson. I don't know exactly what they ran in the 07 model, but in mine I removed a solid 9 face shims and introduced a crossover after the first 9 remaining (from 24). Both aimed at softening the low speed compression. Spring rates will play into it, but shouldn't be too far off. I also softened the mid comp a touch, but closed the float for more ramp up and control on the sharp high speed hits.

Cart and fork cap tools available everywhere for various prices. With aussie dollar where it is it's likely to cheapest to just jump on ebay and find something. I've got a race tech one and a DRC. http://www.onlineracingspares.com.au/c/tools/suspension/2404

 

[lonetree]

that looks like a good place, havent come across them.
tools ordered.....

 

[swazi_matt]

Funny! Your feedback matches mine to a tee.

What rate springs do you have up front? I have found these are a bit firmer than my TTX carts, and Marzocchis. But they do have .46kg/mm springs and 22Nm ICS springs. I'm used to the feedback and would say even on first revalve they're as good as anything else I've ridden. I have a few issues with the front wanting to climb out of rocky downhill ruts, but everywhere else was pretty good. As you have said, its highlighted what could be improved at the back end.

PS. I did 90+ km of mixed terrain. Was stinking hot and humid though so hard to tell what was poor fitness and technique on my part and what the fork could have done better. Nothing scary though, no spikes, and no deflection, at any pace from 1st gear to 6th.

Not sure what the springs are, (will try to get a full build spec from Steve for my info) but know the idea was to go for heavier main springs with lighter valving, and a lighter ICS spring

Will try to play around with clickers this weekend - especially on the rear. I have not serviced the rear in about 100hrs so it is due for one, but would like to know before then if i need to adjust the valving

 

[Jakobi]

Interested to hear Matt!

Put another 100kms on them today. Most focus aimed at the rear end and I think I've got it working possibly the best it has yet.

With the fork offset there is a noticably different feeling at the bars though. I'm not sure if its a good/bad thing. Its more stable, but also heavier and feels like there is more weight on the front wheel. In the real twistys it feels like it takes a bit more effort/lean to get the bike where you want it (but this could also be due to the faster rebound on the back keeping the bike up in the stroke too).

Forks I tried a few settings, and think I've settled on some that work across a range of terrain. Think a touch less spring may make a good fork even better.

 

[(F5)]

Glad to hear the Australian development arm is in full swing.

 

[lonetree]

well what do you know, i just ran into a compleate 08 mod yzf250. interesting to note is that the forks between the 07 and 08 are different. the castings at the bottom of the tubes are quite different and the brake bracket is a different size. off set (lug size?) appears the same but yet to measure it up.... i might end up with two gassers with kyb front ends...
got all the bits i need now to go and do some serious testing.

 

[(F5)]

Any more seat time on this project Jake? I'm sittn here a bit busted with some extra parts screwing a bone together and continplating when I can work on the bike stripping the forks down so they are sorted for when I can next ride. Don't know if that will be 2 months or end of year.
Are you going to go down on spring rate a touch? My 06 yz forks don't seem to use full travel with my 80kg, but I'm not sure how much is unusable in fork area.

 

[Jakobi]

Sorry to hear about your new hardware mate!

I haven't put in a whole lot of seat time (or tinker time even). I'm still chasing that bloody regulator issue to a certain extent as my primary fix it.

Forks I have gone to 1x.44kg/mm and 1x.46kg/mm for around .45kg/mm overall. I have not tested the springs, just going by rated weights so could be some variation there.

I made some changed from my original stacks. They are feeling very plush now. Great in the rocks, roots, techy stuff, but a bit divey under brakes, and spike a touch on faster square edges. Not scary, but just a tad more room for improvement.

I think I'm going to remove the crossover and just run a straight tapered stack and see how it performs. Tweaked the rebound stack a while back and happy with those results too!

Shock still needs a little tweak. It feels too firm to me, but the comp stack is light. Rebound seems ok, but I may try and adjust this some more before chasing comp.

 

[(F5)]

Bump!

Keen to see if there is an update. Like before you get itchy fingers & buy another bike

 

[Jakobi]

Haven't touched the forks since the last iteration. They aren't perfect, but they're far from bad. Feel good pretty much everywhere except for sharp hits in faster sections where they give a bit too much feedback. Not 100% sure what I'll do to try and address this yet. Really good for single track, and also handles woops well too.

Shock stack was revised to increase LSR with the intent of running the clicker open further to assist free bleed on the comp circuit. Worked a treat and the bike is feeling really nicely balanced. Sits up high, is initially plush, but doesn't blow through or bottom.

So it's good all round! Will tweak something on the forks next service.. Maybe a touch less HSC or a bee's dick more float, or maybe I'll just drop the crossover shim. It'll be minor changes as I don't want to stray too far from where I am now.

 

[(F5)]

Sounds pretty good. I'm just tired of feeling beat up, my elbow gives me greif and the zokes just hammered you on rough terrain. The SSS are better but still feel hard in their yz format but I really don't have a clue where to go next.

I have a mate with all the tools as he's setting up bussiness to do road stuff but he's a year in and road only experience.
Plate is giving too much gyp to ride, probably till its out end of year so I have time.