KTM visits Gas Gas factory

[liv2day]

Good on Beta for trying. I have the feeling a lot of people would be much happier with a bike like the XTrainer if they were more honest about they really intended to use the bike.

+1 on this; I was really interested in the KTM Freeride 2T when it was out in Europe; took the maroons long enough to bring it to the states.

There's a market out there for entry level bikes like the Freeride and X-Trainer; it's not like manufacturers simply build a bike without doing requisite market research. And if anyone thinks the folks buying these bikes don't have the potential to step up (ie full enduro) at a later point in time, they're not savvy to how market dynamics work.

As an example, local Beta dealer in town pre-sold all X-Trainers they ordered - which I believe was in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 of 'em. Some of it might be the "look what I have" aspect, but I'd wager it's normal people wanting to get into the sport; or maybe get back into the sport like I did a few years back.

Regardless, the sad state of affairs at GG sucks. I like the employees "welcome" to the KTM bosses - shows their spirit. It's a crap situation all the way around

 

[Chaz955i]

+1 on this; I was really interested in the KTM Freeride 2T when it was out in Europe; took the maroons long enough to bring it to the states.

There's a market out there for entry level bikes like the Freeride and X-Trainer; it's not like manufacturers simply build a bike without doing requisite market research. And if anyone thinks the folks buying these bikes don't have the potential to step up (ie full enduro) at a later point in time, they're not savvy to how market dynamics work.

As an example, local Beta dealer in town pre-sold all X-Trainers they ordered - which I believe was in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 of 'em. Some of it might be the "look what I have" aspect, but I'd wager it's normal people wanting to get into the sport; or maybe get back into the sport like I did a few years back.

Regardless, the sad state of affairs at GG sucks. I like the employees "welcome" to the KTM bosses - shows their spirit. It's a crap situation all the way around

The fanciest tool isn't always the best tool depending on the job. I spent years riding motocross bike on trails because I was convinced bikes like the Kawi KDX were outdated and pretty useless. I finally bought one a couple years back and my eyes were opened. As a race bike, maybe not the best choice (unless your initials are JF) but a very competent and easy to use dirt bike. Apparently for Kawasaki not enough people shared that sentiment or they might still be making them. The Gas Gas Cami looked interesting but it is a four stroke and not sure any ever made it to the states.

I agree 100% on your last statement.

 

[desertgasser300]

I know this is getting off topic, but the problem with easy to ride so called trail bikes is they looked liked crap until Beta made them look the same as there line-up of bikes. Beta nailed it by doing that. I couldnt get my wife on anything else because she noticed a difference in the looks dept. If the japs, ktm and GasGas would have figured this out long ago they would have sold the crap out of them. Had Kawasaki made the KDX to look like an mx bike it would have done a lot better then it did, same for the klx models, great motor and trail manners it just looked a little dated when it came out.

 

[Chaz955i]

I know this is getting off topic, but the problem with easy to ride so called trail bikes is they looked liked crap until Beta made them look the same as there line-up of bikes. Beta nailed it by doing that. I couldnt get my wife on anything else because she noticed a difference in the looks dept. If the japs, ktm and GasGas would have figured this out long ago they would have sold the crap out of them. Had Kawasaki made the KDX to look like an mx bike it would have done a lot better then it did, same for the klx models, great motor and trail manners it just looked a little dated when it came out.

Yeah, very good point and more than a few KDX motors stuffed in KX and KX-F chassis to support it.

To the topic it surprises me the amount of animosity KTM generates. KTM probably has done more to provide a full line of off road motorcycles in the USA than anyone else I can think of. IMO KTM is not a bad guy for what they did to Husqvarna or what they may do with Gas Gas. Without them Husky would likely be in the same place as Gas Gas is now, liquidation with current owners praying there will be some parts support going forward and maybe a viable brand if we really get lucky.

 

[firffighter]

I've been following nearly every review on the Freeride and X trainer and have to say I agree with gasgasxc. I don't get it. A low HP soft motor with tons of lowend, soft, inferior suspension, below average brakes by today's standards. I would think you could save a ton of money and just buy a KDX or XR. Heck, if you want r-start, get a CRF230. I know it has low seat height, but there's lowering links, shaving seats, or even professional lowering your bike.

I saw 1 X trainer at the last race I did in May and the guy is in his 70's.

I would much rather take a modern 200/250/300 and make simple adjustments to make it suited for tight woods. FWW, Rekluse, jetting, PV adjustments, head mods, pipes, etc. are all effective ways to adjust your power delivery to suit your terrain.

Honestly, I could see KTM jumping on this opportunity like they did with Husky and Husaberg.

 

[swazi_matt]

I doubt KTM will be intimidated by the GG staff antics. If they are interested in the brand they will most likely move production to Austria where the guys work precisely don't take siesta and work during the soccer World Cup period as well

But hopefully their antics are getting them some local publicity that will encourage a rich Spanish patriot to buy it instead

PS a GG built/owned by KTM will kill most of the bike forums there will be no more brand bashing

 

[rubber Jonny]

I have ridden a X trainer and its nothing like a KDX, yes its a modern version but its not the same, you cant compare them the same as you couldn't compare a 80's car to a current model, yeah they were built to do the same thing but they are no where near being the same.

Pity Gas Gas didn't build a modern Pampera 2 stroke, that would have sold very well. In the UK a 10+ year old 2 stroke Pampera is worth about $2500. The same money would buy you a 5 year old EC300.

 

[poelinca]

FYI Ossa move into one of the less used parts of the GasGas factory to produce their bikes. Ossa is currently in court with the GasGas liquidators to sue to get their production back. They were never bought or merged with GasGas, only moved in to a part of their facility. This was told to me by my local gasgas/ossa dealer who visits the factory once or twice a year.

He's going over there at the end of August (pretty sure) and I see him at trials events all the time. Can't wait to hear what he says about the whole situation with both of them.

Keep us posted with any info you can get your hands on please!

 

[Chaz955i]

I have ridden a X trainer and its nothing like a KDX, yes its a modern version but its not the same, you cant compare them the same as you couldn't compare a 80's car to a current model, yeah they were built to do the same thing but they are no where near being the same.

Pity Gas Gas didn't build a modern Pampera 2 stroke, that would have sold very well. In the UK a 10+ year old 2 stroke Pampera is worth about $2500. The same money would buy you a 5 year old EC300.

The Xtrainer is what the KDX should have been had Kawasaki not discontinued it. The once a decade re-style didn't help. Interesting quote about the Pampera. Guess not everyone is looking for a race bike with lights. I pulled some pictures and really like the ones with the high front fender. Were those street legal in the UK?

 

[gasgasxc]

Wether you like the great for nothing but good and fun for some things style motorcycles.
Which is basicly a cheap and relatively easy to manufacture offroad bike with a price point far above its true value.

Why buy the Stihl Pro when you could buy the Walmart Poulan for just a few dollars less.??
Fun little chainsaw still cuts wood just fine.And its wife, kid and mother in law friendly.

Whatever, either way, that wasnt my point.
KTM will buy to exterminate the competition.
They dont need to make a Austrian version of a Gas Gas.

Gas Gas sticks with trials bikes and doesnt borrow a crapload of mulla to build a line of Offroad race bikes that they cannot support and we wouldnt be talking about Gas Gas being gone.

Im sure they were spending money that they did not have on R&D for these overpriced underwhelming mother in law friendly free rides also.Shitttt.

Did it to themselves.
We live in a free market capitalistic world economy.
KTM is stepping in and choppin heads off.
Thats how it works.

 

[gasgasxc]

Through all of this starting 2 years ago I never heard, read or in any way saw the company acknowledge that they were in way over their head.
And save their trials manufacturing operations.

They never pumped the brakes.Its all or nothing move.

Im as irritated as the next guy seeing a company like this out of the game.The bikes were unique and had their own flavor a clear idea of what they thought a offroad motorbike should be.

KTM pfffft.Tired of them and the Orange mob that rolls that way.
But.Theres a message here.
Some of you will take that message personally, others get it.

 

[Chaz955i]

Wether you like the great for nothing but good and fun for some things style motorcycles.
Which is basicly a cheap and relatively easy to manufacture offroad bike with a price point far above its true value.

Given the discounted price I paid for my Gas Gas brand new I'd argue they are all priced above their true value and I find paying for features I dont need on otherwise similar quality items isn't a great value proposition no matter how narrow the price margin. If I'm worried about resale the picture can change but so far that hasn't worked in favor of my Gas Gas either and re-sale prices sucked before the bankruptcy.

The chainsaw example is interesting and might work if everyone planned to use their chainsaw the same way. The guy moving into a new house and knocking down a couple trees might not see the reason to pay even a few more dollars for a saw he plans to use once and never again. Completely different story for a professional logger. Intended use helps give context.

These lower featured bikes to be the answer for everyone. They are an addition to what is already out there, not a replacement for the hard core bikes a lot of people like. I see them as a logical step between something like a CRF230 and a full on race-ready bike and if going new there isn't much I can think of in that segment. Now if KTM sweeps in and decides to re-label the Freeride a Gas Gas.....that might be enough to push me over the edge. LOL

 

[gasgasxc]

I just think when you are a small motorcycle manufacturing company with limited financial resources and you are fortunate enough to have a segment of the offroad motorcycle industry to yourself.The leader, the standard that all other trials bikes are compared too.
You do not jeopardize that by borrowing a shittload of dough and try to compete against a global giant like KTM.
Its the Germans we are talking about here.
Do your homework.
This is the number one industrial nation in the world.
Before WW1 the number one industrial nation in the world.After using all their resources in a lost cause and forced to pay back war reperations of an insane amount,.Which they did, every penny.Paid it off early.And having their hands tied by the Versais treaty.They rise again 20 years later to become the number 1 industrial nation in the world and the most technically advanced.
Unfortunately in their own way they are slow learners and get bombed back to the stone age and lose 80% of viable workforce.
After East and West unite 20 years later the number one industrial might in the world.Today.
If you are a small motorcycle manufacturing company you do not compete with that.
KTM is not a rags to riches story.
They started with deep deep pockets.

This is a people you do not underestimate.
Ask the Romans.

Austrian by name only.

 

[firffighter]

It's a very interesting conversation.

My take is that Gasgas never really was focused on the US market. Seems as though they always flirted with becoming a bigger player in the US, but always seemed more vested internationally. They had great moments in World Enduro Championship, were dedicated to Dakar and also extreme enduros overseas.

Other than KTM, what other Euro manufacturer is considered a player? Certainly not TM or Sherco. Everyone seems to think Beta is, but it's too early IMO to say it'll last. They're all wonderful bikes and when there's more players in the market to push the R&D it only benefits us, the consumer. If KTM had no competition, you can believe they'd rubber stamp bikes and jack up prices because we'd have no choice. That's just business.

It's a shame because Gasgas had enough subtle differences to make it a killer woods bike. I do think there's going to be a long term following of them like many other cult type bikes that are so well suited for woods, aka KDX.

In regards to X trainer vs KDX, I was comparing them as apples to apples. my point was I just don't quite get the draw with these new Freerides. I would think it'd be much more prudent to lower your 200/250/300 modern 2- stroke and set up the power delivery to your liking. You can make a modern 2-stroke run as soft or as hard as you please and adjust it for total smooth low end delivery with simple mods and you retain better suspension, brakes, and components. Chilly sums it up well:

http://www.enduro360.com/2015/07/14/products-tested/2015-beta-300-x-trainer-review/

 

[2taddict]

Keep us posted with any info you can get your hands on please!

You may be waiting a while. What a shitfight.

 

[twowheels]

Everyone seems to think Beta is, but it's too early IMO to say it'll last.

From the Beta website ... "At the end of the 1940s, with the changes that had taken pace in Italian society and the development of motorized transport, the company switched to motorcycle production." That would make this about the 65th year ... they may just last after all.

 

[memphis2857]

In regards to X trainer vs KDX, I was comparing them as apples to apples. my point was I just don't quite get the draw with these new Freerides. I would think it'd be much more prudent to lower your 200/250/300 modern 2- stroke and set up the power delivery to your liking. You can make a modern 2-stroke run as soft or as hard as you please and adjust it for total smooth low end delivery with simple mods and you retain better suspension, brakes, and components. Chilly sums it up well:



http://www.enduro360.com/2015/07/14/products-tested/2015-beta-300-x-trainer-review/

So let me get this straight. You would rather buy a "modern" 2-stroke for an extra $2k then lower and detune it to make it have a soft manageable power delivery? Lol. Why not just buy a freeride or x-trainer that already has this done and save some money and not have to work on the bike. You are totally missing the point of these bikes. While lots of us love to tinker and work on our stuff. A large majority don't, they want to ride and some don't want to ride a full on hard hitting race bike. Think about it unless you are an A or really fast B rider you don't ride your bike anywhere near its potential. Chances are if you ride a 300 most of the time you aren't even "on the pipe". The x trainer has just as much or more power than my 300 GG up until about half throttle which is where a large majority of riders spend their time. You can argue better suspension too but the same thing holds true. How many people do you know that actually spend the time and money to respring a bike for their weight. Again most of us aren't good enough riders to even notice a difference.


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[VxZeroKnots]

Well said. Not to mention a xt is going to weigh significantly less than a full on enduro. Especially a gas gas.

 

[Mattnzl]

Another interesting thing about the freeride 2 stroke is that despite having a lower seat height, it has more groundclearance than the EXC's, so a lot better than a lowered exc would be (plus the lower weight).
I'd quite like a FR/XTrainer as a second bike for super knarly stuff...

There - I said it

 

[Moto7man]

KTM is not a rags to riches story.
They started with deep deep pockets.

This is a people you do not underestimate.
Ask the Romans.

Austrian by name only.

Very insightful, these guys have got the mx and off-road on the run and they are shrewd and ruthless. What market doesn't Ktm have a foothold? Now, after the start of the liquidation, Ktm can buy the GasGas name without the debt, move it back to Austria and immediately start producing a line of unique, successful motorcycles. Who has KTM been watching lately? Adam Raga, he has been successfully riding a GG cycle on a shoestring budget against the best factory teams in Europe. That is a testament to Adam and the GG trials machine. Just take a look at this issue of Cycle News.

The trials market is huge in Europe and it would take KTM years of development and huge amount of $$$$, to produce a competitive trials machine. KTM reps are in Spain to establish a time to market analysis. Goodbye GG Enduro line Hello Red Pumpkin Trials Line.