Rick's New-2-Me 2011 EC250 Race Suspension Thread.

[AZRickD]

Extracted from the (last post) of the big suspension thread:

adv_rider is the former owner of my new-2-me 2011 GG EC250 Race:

He advises that the springs are stock.

adv_rider

I tried out this method. I split the difference and set it at 11mm. 18 COMP, 20 REB. I didn't check the hi spd. Being a brand new bike, I didn't measure the sag. I figured I would let the suspension break in, then take measurements.

I measured my sag(s) with the following -- street clothes, empty tank, with a 25-pound weight in my backpack. I weigh about 190 in street clothes.

Shock measurement:

Free sag (settling under its own weight for those not in the know): 36mm

Race sag = 108mm

Fork measurement:

Race sag = 43mm

While the free sag of 36mm might be a bit high, I'm of the mind to leave things alone for the time being, and go hammer some test whoops this weekend to see how it behaves.

 

[twowheels]

Extracted from the (last post) of the big suspension thread:

adv_rider is the former owner of my new-2-me 2011 GG EC250 Race:

He advises that the springs are stock.

adv_rider


I measured my sag(s) with the following -- street clothes, empty tank, with a 25-pound weight in my backpack. I weigh about 190 in street clothes.

Shock measurement:

Free sag (settling under its own weight for those not in the know): 36mm

Race sag = 108mm

Fork measurement:

Race sag = 43mm

While the free sag of 36mm might be a bit high, I'm of the mind to leave things alone for the time being, and go hammer some test whoops this weekend to see how it behaves.

The forks are likely going to want at least a 0.44 set of springs. Rear sag could stand to be decreased to 103-105.

 

[AZRickD]

I would suspect that as well, but I need to prove it to myself, first.

One size up on the forks, perhaps. Lets see how they perform tomorrow. I wouldn't be surprised to see them be okay for me.

Do you think I'll need to go up one on the shock or can I crank the spring a bit?

 

[GMP]

Fastest way to a crappy ride in the rocks is a soft spring with a lot of preload. Those numbers seem almost too good for a 5.2 rear spring. I'm at 5.4 on my '07 and its borderline soft for me @ 176 lbs. The '12 likes a softer spring so a 5.4 is it.


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[AZRickD]

Well, i dooo have my old spring from the 2005. I don't see a marking on it but LTR has some paperwork I filed away.

 

[celler]

Fastest way to a crappy ride in the rocks is a soft spring with a lot of preload. Those numbers seem almost too good for a 5.2 rear spring. I'm at 5.4 on my '07 and its borderline soft for me @ 176 lbs. The '12 likes a softer spring so a 5.4 is it.


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I agree with this. I'm 180 lbs and have 38mm free about 115-118 rider and 12mm spring preload. If I add anymore spring preload ride gets harsh. I ride rocks almost exclusively and do not carry tools on my body. If I rode a lot of sand and whoops heavier spings would be in order. Others on this site would give better guidance for whoops. The Michigan guys live in the sand.

On a separate note : I had a pair of 126mm LTR links and with them I can run more spring preload and the ride stays good. These links are on my 2005. I can set the bike up with 95mm rider sag with these. The Arizona terrain that I rode is similar to what I ride in the summer in Missouri.

 

[twowheels]

I've got a couple of 5.6s if you want to give one a try. Like it and buy it or send it back postage paid.

 

[celler]

What fork springs go with the 5.6?

 

[twowheels]

What fork springs go with the 5.6?

Typically 0.46

 

[AZRickD]

Ahhh. I have found the LTR worksheet

...and I quote:

2005 GG DE 250
S.T. Trail/Enduro/H.S. ROCKS
200 pounds, Toolpack, hydration

FORKS:
Springs -- .44
Preload -- 6mm
Rebound -- 10 out
Comp Low -- 16 out
Comp Hi -- NA
Oil Height -- 130mm 10weight

SHOCK:
Springs -- 5.4
Preload -- 10mm
Rebound -- 16 out
Comp Low -- 18 out
Comp Hi -- 2.5 out
PSI 130mm -- 195 PSI
Shock Piston Height -- 10-15mm

 

[AZRickD]

Thanks for the offer, 2-Wheels.

I fought the heat and got up at 4am Saturday and again on Sunday to ride in 90F temps until about 8am.

On Saturday I took a buddy who has about 50 pounds on me. He has sold his KTM300 so I loaned him my WR50. I forgot to bring my tire pump so I was riding with 7 PSI of air front and rear, so I had to take it easy due to our sharp rocks.

I had some rocky single track and a selection of whoops (gravel sand, sugar sand, and hard pack). The shock and forks were both set in the middle of the range. I noticed they were firm, but compliant, and a little busy, especially when my buddy got on it. I slowed the shock damping ten clicks (about ten from full in) and that tamed it 80%. I clicked it in another 5-clicks and it behaved fairly well. I left the Ohlin's compression setting(s) along. Given the damping/compression circuit mixing of the Ohlins 888, I think a revalve is in my future.

My buddy said he was amazed that the forks rolled over volleyball-sized rocks well, but it was jouncy in the small stuff. For me, it was the opposite. I didn't feel the small stuff, and the bigger stuff was handled well. I backed off the compression five clicks to 20-out.

I noticed that when I came off a whoop jump face, the forks extended with a thunk (just as my WR does). Some bikes do, some don't. I'd like to get that fixed.

Those Metzler ISDE tires (with 14 hours on them), really held the bike back. The tires were no match for the brakes, and their behavior in bumpy corners didn't allow me to go fast enough to test the boingers in those situations.

It looks like the forks were raised about 5mm from the fork nut. How this affected the suspension and handling is unclear to me, but I noticed that the front was just a bit twitchy (un GasGas-like) and would've benefited from mounting my Scotts (waiting for the BRP underbar mount).

So, the suspension isn't too bad. I could race and ride this at my C+ pace quite well. However, I'm still thinking about upping the springs some (5.4/.44) and plushing the boingers and adding some rebound damping.

 

[AZRickD]

I am taking it to the suspender guy tomorrow.

Given me at 185 (buck naked, with a good chance of making it to 175 in the coming months), what are the recommended spring rates for me?

Stock is .42/5.2

Is .44/5.4 reasoanable or should I consider .46/5.6 ?

 

[AZRickD]

My tuner (futureshoxs.com) called Ohlins. Based on my weight and the Gasser's particulars, they recommended a 5.4. He is going to revalve both ends to be super plush over rocks while bumping up the rebound damping.

He is suggesting that I hold off on new fork springs until I ride it to see how it takes G-outs and handles exit turns from sand washes.

One curve ball, I showed him my LTR-massaged O-888 shock which supposedly had a 5.4 spring mounted to it. All the markings were rubbed off but the coil diameter was actually about 0.2mm thinner than the marked 5.2 on the 2011.

 

[AZRickD]

I took the bike out to ride some real Flagstaff rocks. My tuner did minimal work to the system, just poked around to see if anything was amiss and put a new spring (5.4) on the shock. Total sag is about 104-ish.

I was pinging all over the place, so I went to the clickers. On the forks I had the rebound all the way in and the compression all the way out. PFP is supposedly at zero. Fork was still stiff and boingy, only slightly less. A local tuner got on the bike and bounced it around and said, "I see Marzocchi hasn't changed its rebound philosophy -- ain't none." He looked at the dirt line on the .42nm-sprung fork which had just a few inches of travel and compared it to his KTM which had several inches of travel. "You're not using much of the stroke on these." --- and, it clunks on extension.

The shock now had a 5.4nm spring on it. Similar problems as with the forks. I backed the compression (hi & lo) all the way out to get some travel. I also dialed in the rebound to 5-out, then all the way in to get it to slow down, knowing that the cross-talk would become an issue.

So, what is the shim set up should a 180-185 guy use for C/B speed rocks ?

 

[Simmo737]

I took the bike out to ride some real Flagstaff rocks. My tuner did minimal work to the system, just poked around to see if anything was amiss and put a new spring (5.4) on the shock. Total sag is about 104-ish.

I was pinging all over the place, so I went to the clickers. On the forks I had the rebound all the way in and the compression all the way out. PFP is supposedly at zero. Fork was still stiff and boingy, only slightly less. A local tuner got on the bike and bounced it around and said, "I see Marzocchi hasn't changed its rebound philosophy -- ain't none." He looked at the dirt line on the .42nm-sprung fork which had just a few inches of travel and compared it to his KTM which had several inches of travel. "You're not using much of the stroke on these." --- and, it clunks on extension.

The shock now had a 5.4nm spring on it. Similar problems as with the forks. I backed the compression (hi & lo) all the way out to get some travel. I also dialed in the rebound to 5-out, then all the way in to get it to slow down, knowing that the cross-talk would become an issue.

So, what is the shim set up should a 180-185 guy use for C/B speed rocks ?

Get the oil changed and bled properly, exactly how mine felt after 12 hrs, i e nothing there, most tuners will use 2.5 or 5 wt, these things work with 7.5 wt plus and the specific bled procedure (which is not dissimilar to kyb cc forks but still different) I am assuming your tuner did not change the cartridge oil?

Bouncing twin chamber forks doesn't tell you the whole story, the cartridge pressure rises dramatically as the damper rod speed increases.rebound damping has the same effect as the rod is fully displacing oil in the cartridge towards full travel the pressure increase so rebound damping deep in the stroke is different to a few inches of bouncing.

 

[AZRickD]

Gotcha. We were looking at the stroke mark after a 30-mile trail ride. The rebound comment was done after bouncing. I could feel all the madness during the ride. I am not sure if he changed the cartridge oil.

I re-read the big 48mm Zokes thread. Interesting about the similarities.

Strange that there is little mention of stack modifications.

 

[AZRickD]

My tuner talked to Alan to get things sorted out.

The key was working on the proper fork oil level for a B-rock-racer who rides at an upper C-pace. I am quite a challenge. The chunk sound on full extension is now gone, and the front end really "springs" to life confidently over whoops.

The rebound was left alone, but they added a second bleed shim to the compression stack. It was compliant in rocks, but a little divey under hard braking. I tuned out the diviness to my liking with two full turns in of compression. That was a trade-off in the rocks, however and I backed it off one turn. I might see what the PFP adjustment does for it as well.

Upping the fork's rebound damping clickers from 20-out to 15-out gave it a nice, nap-of-the-earth floaty feeling.

The shock rebound damping was too my liking as set. I might take out some slow-speed compression. Not sure about high-speed, just yet.

 

[Jakobi]

So where did you end up on the springs Rick?

With the TTX at both ends on my 2010R I'm running .46 up front, and 5.4 rear and can bottom both when running the clickers soft or g-ing out. In saying that though the overall ride on those springs is quite firm and the bike sits up well in the stroke. I wouldn't call it plush, but its very compliant. I'm only 165lbs nudey, but carry the heaviest toolroll ever.. I'd be between 200-210lbs with all the gear, tools, fluids, and a bit of sweat and mud caked on.

 

[AZRickD]

I have upped to 5.4 in back and kept the fork's stock for .42s for now. The cartridges are untouched. Alan said they are tricky beasts.

My tuner related that Alan said that's what he's done (and is in my weight range and likely much faster).

I'll ride it a few times to see if I need to go up one in the front. The soft valving in front might require more spring to keep it in the stroke.

Or maybe the PFP can be used. I'll read up.

Alan says he has been waiting for a long time for those stubby PFP springs in a lighter variety. He has springs for one titch stiffer but is still waiting on the one titch wimpier.

 

[AZRickD]

I took the forks back to the tuner last week to add more rebound damping. He removed a bleed shim in the stack. I rode it on some bumpiness and it feels pretty good.