Theory on motorcycle steering

[Clay]

I have been thinking on this topic for a while and thought I would get the opinions of the educated members on this site......
Every time, without fail, when we do demo rides at an event, someone will comment that "This bike oversteers". (Ususally the person who says this rides an orange bike.) I have started using this reply: Motorcycles don't steer. A motorcycle is like a gun. It can't do anything without the input of an operator. Some bikes steer better than others and if you think this bike steers too quickly that means you are putting more effort into turning it than needed because you are use to a bike that doesn't steer as well as the Gas Gas or Sherco you just rode.
So far, no one has punched me in the mouth!
I don't say it exactly that bluntly. I try to be a little more diplomatic than the above statement but it seems to get the rider thinking about the bike he currently owns and the bike he just got to demo.
What do you guys think? Make sense?

 

[einsteingarage]

That is in line with the responses I got from the demos I have done. Test riders stated that the gasgas steering was quicker and it cornered better than the orange bikes they were use to

 

[gasgasman]

Bring up "counter steering". That will throw them for a loop.

 

[Fred1956]

Bring up "counter steering".

You can't steer counters either, just like the orange bikes?..

Clay, that made perfect sense to me??.Any Pics of the '14s yet??

 

[thumperflipper]

Clay you are right on. Like a wise man once said regarding no safety on a handgun: "If you don't want it (the gun) to go off, don't pull the trigger" LOL...Besides, quick steering is one of the best parts of my GasGas, that's what I want. Trials-like steering in an enduro. I can now rail switchbacks with confidence. AND it still doesn't need a steering stabilizer at high speeds. Knuckles for that.

 

[Clay]

You can't steer counters either, just like the orange bikes?..

Clay, that made perfect sense to me??.Any Pics of the '14s yet??

My demo bikes didn't make it so its being shipped out to NV and I will get it there. I will take some pics when I get it.
Are you going to be standing on the side of I-40 with your thumb out Thursday afternoon?

 

[Jakobi]

Sounds like a good sales pitch to me

Seriously though, it all makes sense except for them complaining about a bike that wants to take you to the inside of a turn. I'm much happier using a little more finess to position the bike where I want it than turning the bars and still having it want to plough its way to the outside.

 

[3beejay3]

Obviously - how a bike steers has a lot to do with basic chassis & suspension setup. However, the GG chassis seems to have an inherent stability and planted feeling that makes them feel like they steer quick.
There's no wasted effort. Put the front wheel where you want it and go.

 

[Fred1956]

My demo bikes didn't make it so its being shipped out to NV and I will get it there. I will take some pics when I get it.
Are you going to be standing on the side of I-40 with your thumb out Thursday afternoon?

Boy do I wish, don't be surprised if I find a way to get to Vegas though....Have fun & ride safe!

 

[Leo]

This is an kind of a thing that you need to ride a month to talk about.....Demo rides is just an first impression.

There guys that talk too much to show that they know too much about bikes....and invariably fail.

 

[canamfan]

non-educated member

Clay I'm one of those that's been riding an orange bike and before that a kdx. I think I did comment on how quick the steering felt to me on the sherco and the gasgas. I was at Freds place for the demo. I've tried reducing the sag on my orange and green bikes and that has quickened the steering but you lose high speed stability. This whole steering thing is interesting to me because I never really gave it much thought untill now. Just thought thats the way a dirt bike was gonna be. Either good turning with poor high speed stability or the opposite. When I test rode the sherco it felt to me like it was going to slide out in the front but it didn't it just turned, and that's a good thing. I didn't really get up enough speed to see what that felt like, but it was definitely different then the orange bike. I'm saving my money for a new bike we'll see how quick that goes. Thanks again for the demo rides. Steve

 

[bkwdc]

Don't mean to hijack here. But, sunday I rode a HS where this thing was cutting on the high side of rooted off cambers where everyone else had to rely on a ledge or find a berm. Simply amazing these bikes regarding their turning and ability to stay straight no matter what.

Do the 12, 13, 14 turn like my 10 and 2011? How about the Sherco?

 

[Clay]

Don't mean to hijack here. But, sunday I rode a HS where this thing was cutting on the high side of rooted off cambers where everyone else had to rely on a ledge or find a berm. Simply amazing these bikes regarding their turning and ability to stay straight no matter what.

Do the 12, 13, 14 turn like my 10 and 2011? How about the Sherco?

Both of these brands and all year models turn like your bike.

 

[hamilton]

Riding my ktm and GG all year I sure notice the difference in handling. Its hard to describe, the ktm has a heaiver feel to the front end (requires more effort to turn). The GG is very easy to pick any line you want,excecpt in extreme tight which requires me to make different line choices. It has taken me a little time to settle into that. Now I find myself trying to get the ktm to handle more like the GG. I'm very happy with the GG handling, but it takes more time then a demo ride to settle into.

 

[celler]

When I test ride a bike I tend to only concern myself with the motor, clutch, gear ratios, front brake and weight. The new bikes are so good and adjustable that it is very difficult to get it set up for an individual. Depending how my bike is set up it may under or over steer. I've spent 2 years getting my KTM to handle like my GasGas and I finally got pretty close

 

[JP4]

This thread got me thinking of an old DR rag test, so I went and found the mag.

Test on a 2011 GG XC250 at the Muddobber National Enduro, by Chris Dennison - Dirt Rider Magazine, January 2011 issue, pages 62-64.

This is part of what of what they had to say (from page 63):

"... The bike turns well without exaggerated corner entry on the part of the rider, and it will drop into a tighter line and stay in a rut without complaint. Low-speed front wheel placement is extremely precise, meaning that if you spot a stump at the last minute, you can get around it with room to spare, with the rear wheel following suit. The exception to this precision was in fast, flat turns where the rear of the bike would push to the outside of the corner.. This isn't so much a loss of traction as it is a handling trait, and it occurred predictably in dry terrain ..."

The bold bit sure sounds like the oversteer comments Clay gets!

Last time my Berg 2-t riding buddy got off my bike, all he could say was 'Man, does that thing turn ..."

Maybe these little euro trials bike companies are on to something ...

 

[noobi]

You dont oversteer from the front of the bike anyway, thats just fast turning.

Oversteer, as JP4 points out in the DR write up, is when the rear end wants to step out in a corner, and effectively steers the front of the bike from the back. So you correct by turning in a opposite direction to the way you're actually heading. Most commonly known as sliding or drifting. If its happening and you don't want it too, then its a set up problem. Possibly with too fast rebound on the back shock, or the rear tyre. Its not caused by the front of the bike though.

I have both a KTM and an 07 gasgas, and hands down the gasgas turns better. However, for me at least, what the gasgas makes up for in turning, I found it lost in high speed stability. Just what I experienced, yours may vary.

It also definitely took a while to get the KTM to change direction, having to initiate the turn 5m before the corner took some getting used to.

I can understand the comment of 'oversteer' if you had only ridden KTMs or fourstrokes. Not that the observation is wrong, just that the explanation behind it is.

 

[coopernicus]

For a very interesting read, go to Wikipedia and search on "oversteer and understeer". The best Euro car makers choose oversteer for their designs if I remember correctly.

Eric

 

[twowheels]

The best Euro car makers choose oversteer for their designs if I remember correctly.

Eric

I wouldn't say the best, but many Euro car manufacturers set their cars up very neutral / bordering on oversteer. A lot of them tune the vehicles to the point that you can get wheel lift in an unladen vehicle as well. Agile perhaps, but undesirable to the vast majority of the driving public.

With respect to GasGas steering, I tell guys you can pick your inch of trail and stick to it. I have yet to find a bike as precise in the steering department as a Gasser. The latest (12/13) chassis adds high speed stability to the steering precision.

 

[gasser]

Different gearing set ups changes where the rear axle rides in the swingarm and therefor slightly changes the wheelbase. For me a 12/48 gearing which is the same as 13/52 moves the axle back @3/4 inch which allows me to sit further back on my seat and still feel balanced. I know most of you fast guys like to sit up on the tank but that just doesn't work for some of us.