07 300 EC vs 07 or 08 KTM 300 xcw

[101racing]

Ok Ok, I know this has been brought up a jillion times but doing a search doesn't answer all my questions. Between my Son and I we own both an 07 and an 08 300 xcw. Here is what I know about both and what it has taken to get them ridable for us.I'll start with the 07:Front and rear resprung and revalved,subtanks,EE soft seat,JD jetting,Clay mod (Wossner domed piston),SST fmf pipe. Evaluation of the bike. Good:suspension way better than stock but could be better especially in the rear.Handling very good after adjusting the sag properly.Motor:has incredible bottom that will chug just about anywhere.Goes into a mid range that will 4th gear wheelie.The middle power valve spring smooths out that transition better.Has good top end.NOT SO GOOD:Relies on half race gas,rear suspension could be better,temperature and altitude sensitive until the motor work and JD jetting.The only complaint on the 08 is the suspension needs work for the trails and the rock hard seat.
Who has ridden both the GG and KTM and give an honest evaluation between the motors and suspension ? No bashing please .

 

[AZRickD]

I've only ridden the '06 KTM 300XC and XC-Ws and the 07 250 SX (with suspension trailized but still harsh) and a bone-stock XC (both ridden at 7,000 MSL).

The '07 Gassers I've ridden were GasGasMan's MC 250 and Boomer's EC "275."

The only EC300s I rode were a '99 sprung and valved for big moto-air (great for the track, harsh for rocks, but that's what he wanted), and an '05 that had LTR suspension (unbelievably sweeeet over rocks).

The suspension and frames on the '07 Gassers were better than the KTM in every category. The Gasser was both more stable and quicker turning than the KTMs. There was no tendency to swap when I took the Gassers over smallish whoops and the front-end stayed planted with no deflections.

The Gasser motors didn't have the bottom of the KTMs, but they were much more linear and revved more freely. There was also much, much less vibration than on the KTM 300s.

The ergos fit my 5'9" frame better. My foot could always find the rear brake pedal.

Rick

 

[LAWMAN]

'07 KTM 300W

+: great fit & finish for the most part (other than the gas cap on the '06-'07s), better aftermarket support, dealer network, & resale.

-: W gearbox = always in the wrong gear, too much hit of torque right off bottom, went flat too early on top, needed race gas to run right, too hard to turn, never could get happy with the suspension. overall I never got completely comfortable on it.

'07 GG 300E

+: terrific handling, suspension, motor, gear ratios.

-: a little rougher fit & finish, a little more trouble to work on, fewer sources of parts & accessories, difficult resale.

 

[AZRickD]

I got into a minor argument at our last club meeting (ATR is big into KTM) with a good guy who is selling his '06 300XC (the one I test rode at the Destry Abbott clinic) for a 450XCR-W.

He wanted me to buy his bike but I told him I was still sticking with the Gasser. His prime reason is re-sale value which was countered by the fact that he was selling his 300 for $3800. I told him that the GG suspension was superb. He told me it was too soft. I reminded him that he is the fastest 40A rider in the state and I'm almost the slowest 40C rider in the state -- I don't need stiff suspension.

I told him that the GG was both quicker-turning and more stable than the KTM. Nearly 1/4 of the room objected with "you can't have both increased stability and quicker turning !!!"

I said, simply, "Gas Gas. I've ridden them."

 

[roostafish]

I've just ridden my brother in law's '08 KTM 300 XC-W. I can only compare it to my own bike, an '01 GG EC 300, Ohlins front and rear, LTR revalved, Scotts damper, absolutely everything available for Gas Gas is on my bike. It's the sweetest thing this side of a factory ride. The only thing missing is the mechanic to take care of it for me while I shower.

Okay, that said, here goes.
The KTM is bone stock, but for the bar risers and GPR damper. The bike feels, and probably is a lot lighter than the Gas Gas. The power is amazing. It feels a wee bit stronger perhaps, but perhaps it was because my bike is better jetted. My bike has instant throttle response, his was good, but mine is totally dialed. I realize that's setup, but I had to mention it anyway.
The suspension is surprisingly good for a KTM. I was so surprised that the rear suspension actually worked without kicking or doing anything wierd. This was stock, no revalve, not even a clicker moved. I liked it just fine.

Turning: My old chassis Gasser still turns better, and feels more planted than the new KTM. Maybe it's because it's heavier, maybe that's even a good thing in this case. I felt like I couldn't just choose my line on the KTM as well as I can on my GG. Tires to blame? Maybe, but the KTM certainly didn't hold a line as well as my bike.

Odds and endo's: I am a total electric start naysayer. I think it's girly on a two stroke. For crying out loud, move the lever out and kick the thing, they start soooooooo easy. BUT!!! As I was chasing him through the woods he stalled his bike. I was no more than 15 feet behindhim, so I wanted to run into him and break in his bike right . Well, the turd poked that button and took off before I could ram him. Then later, on a gnarly hill climb, he stalled just over a root in the trail. The most amazing thing happened, he relit the thing and got going before the bike could roll back over the root, which would've happened had he not relit.

I think the KTM is a great bike. I also think the Gas Gas is a great bike. I am convinced that I can ride a Gas Gas faster, for a longer period of time than a KTM. Gas Gas is not as mechanic friendly as the KTM. Some things are a little harder to get to, but what happens in the garage isn't as important as what happens on the trail.

 

[LAWMAN]

I think the KTM is a great bike. I also think the Gas Gas is a great bike. I am convinced that I can ride a Gas Gas faster, for a longer period of time than a KTM. Gas Gas is not as mechanic friendly as the KTM. Some things are a little harder to get to, but what happens in the garage isn't as important as what happens on the trail.[/QUOTE]

Well said! my GG has been a little bit of a hassle, partly b/c I bought it used & partly b/c I didn't know anything about it & partly b/c it's just harder to work on, but it's all worth it when it's time to ride. it's the 1st time I ever bought a bike & instantly was a better rider, despite numerous previous attempts.

 

[Loosenut]

I rode my '05 GasGas and an '07 KTM300 XC back to back on Sunday. The KTM had freshly revalved suspension from Dirt Tricks out of SoCal. The KTM has plenty of power in the correct gear, but riding a gear high like on my GasGas was difficult. My GasGas has low-end power starting earlier than the KTM and it ramps up smoothly. The KTM low-end was abrupt, but I believe that can be jetted out with a different needle. The KTM throttle response was awesome and was fun on the MX track, but a detriment on the single track. The KTM is light and you really notice it any time you catch any air. The '07 KTM turns better than the '04 KTM 300 EXC I had for 9 months.

The KTM suspension still leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. It's still no better than my 8 year old '00 GasGas with 43mm WP forks. The KTM forte is the whoops. The linkless shock works well for me in the big whoops. The shock worked better than the forks on this KTM.

The bottom line is that I really like my gassers and they work well for me. I like KTMs also, but they don't work as well for my riding style. Chances are that if I had chosen KTM over GasGas back in 2000, I would probably still be a KTM rider. Thanks to Jim Cook and the KTMs lack of a 6th gear I'm a GasGas rider.

 

[Skidad]

I've just ridden my brother in law's '08 KTM 300 XC-W. I can only compare it to my own bike, an '01 GG EC 300, Ohlins front and rear, LTR revalved, Scotts damper, absolutely everything available for Gas Gas is on my bike. It's the sweetest thing this side of a factory ride. The only thing missing is the mechanic to take care of it for me while I shower.

Okay, that said, here goes.
The KTM is bone stock, but for the bar risers and GPR damper. The bike feels, and probably is a lot lighter than the Gas Gas. The power is amazing. It feels a wee bit stronger perhaps, but perhaps it was because my bike is better jetted. My bike has instant throttle response, his was good, but mine is totally dialed. I realize that's setup, but I had to mention it anyway.
The suspension is surprisingly good for a KTM. I was so surprised that the rear suspension actually worked without kicking or doing anything wierd. This was stock, no revalve, not even a clicker moved. I liked it just fine.

Turning: My old chassis Gasser still turns better, and feels more planted than the new KTM. Maybe it's because it's heavier, maybe that's even a good thing in this case. I felt like I couldn't just choose my line on the KTM as well as I can on my GG. Tires to blame? Maybe, but the KTM certainly didn't hold a line as well as my bike.

Odds and endo's: I am a total electric start naysayer. I think it's girly on a two stroke. For crying out loud, move the lever out and kick the thing, they start soooooooo easy. BUT!!! As I was chasing him through the woods he stalled his bike. I was no more than 15 feet behindhim, so I wanted to run into him and break in his bike right . Well, the turd poked that button and took off before I could ram him. Then later, on a gnarly hill climb, he stalled just over a root in the trail. The most amazing thing happened, he relit the thing and got going before the bike could roll back over the root, which would've happened had he not relit.

I think the KTM is a great bike. I also think the Gas Gas is a great bike. I am convinced that I can ride a Gas Gas faster, for a longer period of time than a KTM. Gas Gas is not as mechanic friendly as the KTM. Some things are a little harder to get to, but what happens in the garage isn't as important as what happens on the trail.

How did you feel about the KTM's wide ratio 5 speed tranny vs the GG 6 speed. Was it a noticeable difference or does the KTM 300 just pull it easliy with no gappy feeling? I love the idea of the 6 speed myself.

I believe many of the anti 2 stroke e-start people rode one for a day, especially in really gnarly terrain where the stall factor is much higher they would have a change of heart about it. JMHO here. You can also put a Rekluse on which helps prevent stalling issues but some don't believe in them either.


Skidad in MA

 

[GMP]

Part of the 2-stroke advantage is the simplicity. The GG motor is clean and you can get to the plug easy and the carb rotated and rejetted in minutes if neccessary. Look at that KTM, you can't even see the left side of the cylinder. How is the right side? I remember on my '99 300 having to pull the tank on the trail just to change a needle clip position, PIA. To me, ease and speed of access to basic components on the trail far outweigh ease of service in the shop. While it can and will happen in tricky situations where it would be an advantage, stalling is not a big enough issue for me(or most I feel) to want an e-start 2-stroke. I'll take that weight loss and more simple design. Why they did that instead of a 6-speed is beyond me, but it will help sell a few GGs I'm sure.

 

[roostafish]

I felt that the five speed was fine. We were riding in root infested, hilly, muddy, nasty stuff though, not exactly 5th gear country. In the lower gears, I didn't even notice a difference between his transmission and mine.

What I did notice is that his bike had a surge of power, due to being jetted a little fat, and the engine needing to catch up with its fuel delivery. That was the biggest bother.

As far as changing a plug. When was the last time you fouled a plug? I'm not plugging KTM here, but I can see the logic of hiding it for better weight distribution. I haven't fouled a plug in this century! Probably not since the mid '90s. Granted, carb access is more often needed, and jetting on the trail really sucks, but I think it sucks no matter what.

Nothing turns, or is as planted as a Gas Gas.

 

[GMP]

I never foul plugs either, but always like to check it before a race or big ride. Murphy says I'd foul a plug if I got that bike. We also jet on the trail, but mostly when setting up a bike. Just did a PWK swap and jetting on a Husky WR250 and that tank has to come off too. I guess its a trade off if you want it thats all. It'll be a hit with some and a sore spot with others I'm sure. I think the e-start haters are pissed simply because they were denied a choice. I bet you can take the shock out faster than the plug!

 

[roostafish]

So true, the shock is super easy access. But that's another trade off. Easy maintenance, not so great performance.

Oh, and by the way, I'm no longer an E-start hater. I wouldn't buy a bike based on whether it had the button or not, I need a bike that works as a package. Overall though, it's no longer a negative to me, especially since I felt the bike was lighter than mine, and it had the electric starter.

 

[Skidad]

Getting to the plug on my 97 KTM 250 is a bear. It can be done and removed with the tank on with the Motion Pro flat ratchet plug remover. Still sucks especially with a hot motor. I use a really nifty little rubber boot on the spark plug that KTM supplies that gently seals against the top of the cylinder head when the plug is tightened so no dirt or mud can fall down in the plug hole.

Jetting is also a pain in the arse. I need to remove the seat and tank and shrouds to access my carb. To turn it so you can get at the floatbowl you also have to remove the chain protector at the countershaft sprocket. I just leave this thing off while jetting. You can have the seat and tank/shrouds off in 5 minutes but it's still just a major pain to do over and over again while making changes.

Glad to hear the GG is much better in this regard and makes you more inclined to play with jetting instead of living with not so perfect jetting because the carb is so hard to get to. It looks like the 08 KTM's are much better now with the new small cylinders on the 250 and 300.

I haven't fouled a plug in years either but I like to do throttle chops while jetting and that plug is stinking HOT to remove. No room for a gloved hand at all to remove it. Kevlar glove liners.


Skidad in mA

 

[LAWMAN]

on my '07 KTM 300W, I got to where I hated the wide ratio gearing, it was always in the wrong gear. I actually bought a used SX gearset to swap out the 2-3, but when I realized that even after all that time & $, I would still hate the turning & suspension, I swapped it for this here Gas Gas & have no regrets. anybody want to buy an SX gear set?

I also once had a '97 250 EXC. nice bike, but a total tank & too hard to turn. it did have nice suspension, tho, b/t the Ohlins w/linkage & the old-school 'Zoke fork.

 

[gasser]

If you need any parts for that 97 KTM we have a complete 96 model 250exc that was parked over 3 years ago. It ran great when parked and still turns over. The bike has an aftermarket triple clamp and an Olins rear shock. The bike belongs to my son but he would be happy to sell it for $400, maybe less. - Ken

 

[AZRickD]

Why is a Gas Gas more difficult to work on than a KTM?

Rick

 

[GMP]

I can still see my buddy cursing on the side of the road in south jersey, a few minutes before our card was due to flip for the '98 Sandy Lane Enduro, with a fouled plug on that '97 300 and the plastic and tank on the ground. Temps in the 30s, cold motor, no so perfect jetting, and an impatient right hand.

 

[GMP]

The GasGas has linkage. This linkage has several different size fasteners to deal with. No big deal after you do it the first time, and it doesn't need constant service. The trick to R&R the GG linkage is to crack the fasteners loose on the bike and remome the entire linkage as a unit. There are a few other areas like the subframe that uses nuts and bolts, no inserts. Not a big deal to me.

 

[MattR]

Why is a Gas Gas more difficult to work on than a KTM?

Rick

My biggest gripe is the multitude of fastener head sizes/types. I just picked up my "new-to-me" 2007 EC250. First thing I did was check over all bolts... boy did I have an assortment of wrenches out. I forgot how many different types of fasteners GG's have after wrenching on my KTM. You have 8,10,12,13,14mm hex head ; 3,4,5,6mm allen head ; 8mm torx head ; phillips screws both small and large ; swingarm pivot and linkage are english I think since they fit better... the list goes on but it's just a minor hassle. Which reminds me that I need to go thru my fanny pack and make sure I'm covered. I might as well strap my toolbox to my waist.

 

[AZRickD]

That's it?

That's the big complaint?

Pshaw !!

I thought it had something to do with removing seals, gaskets, or bearings.