2013 EC250R - 65Hr Report/Review

[Jakobi]

Thanks for all the kind words everyone.

Got a little bit of time on it this afternoon and think the NECW#2 is a touch lean. Fun to ride, but lacks some roll on torque and can also get some lean hestitation/stalling whacking the throttle into the 1/3 open range, even with a richish idle and pilot circuit.

Have put it back to NEDW#2 for tomorrows ride. Will probably give a better back to back comparison between previous top end and the fresh one, along with cutting the pipe back. If its still overly spoogy/fluffy I'll then look at going in another direction.

Forks are still on stand by, but had to take up the chance for a half day ride and will also be doing some swaps with a 2015 EC250R with 42 NEDW#2 175. Should make for an interesting comparo.

 

[Jakobi]

Smashed out a solid loop today. Bike ran like a dream. Same jetting as before, but with the cut down pipe only a ring of oil at the end as opposed to a huge drool stain. I'm impressed with that.

Forks are good and I enjoyed them as they were. Rode back to back with a stock 2015 and found I lacked confidence to smash things with the stockers that mine would just absorb. The stockers did feel a bit nicer at low speeds, but began deflecting when pushed.

Shock felt dead. It still feels quite firm in its action, but chomps through the big hits nicely, and doesn't buck or kick on short sharp lips. I think I may consider backing the adj out a touch more. Stock 2015 Reiger felt plusher, but much busier over all. Due to its forks deflecting a bit and being a demo bike I didn't push it or slam into things I would on mine.

Engine wise, both bikes ran the same jetting. The 2015 had reduced vibrations, and was very very smooth and linear. It didn't feel as aggressive as my setup, but it wasn't weak and pulled the 13-48 gearing quite well. I might try and take some more measurements, but I think I found it easier to stand on the newer model, but it may have simply been that I wasn't pushing and as thus wasn't getting as many forces put through the body.

 

[n_green]

Good report. Interesting both bikes ran the same jetting. By any chance did you take note of fuel economy?
2015 was smoother, meaning richer?

 

[Jakobi]

My bike had more off idle blubber than the 2015. The new one was running 2 teeth less on the back which smooths things out a certain amount. We didn't compare fuel usage at the end, but appeared to be on par earlier in the ride.

I might ask him to have a look how much he has left.

One thing I did notice, that even at a casual pace I managed to get his front brake making noises. I haven't had this happen on mine.

Ergos were similar. Jumped on, and felt right at home and was chuggin along at a very nice casual pace. Didn't really feel the need to hammer the throttle, clutch it on song, or push it overly. Mine on the other hand I think works better when pushed, both in the engine department and suspension.

 

[Jakobi]

Head stem bearings looked good still. Repacked with some more grease and called em done. Pics will follow.

In not so good news (probably worthy of its own thread), the same cartridge that became heavily contaminated last time has done it again in around 20hrs. The nice clean blue oil that went in is very dark gray. I'm guessing it has to be the internal anodizing wearing. I haven't pulled the other one down yet, but I'm guessing it won't have nearly as much contamination.

This puts me in a bit of a sticky place. I'm not going to root around trying to source Marzocchi parts, so it'll either be TTX carts, or a complete KYB SSS front end.

 

[n_green]

Hmm that sucks. Where do you think it's wearing? Is it the dlc coating on the cart legs? Or are the lower cart inners anodized?

 

[n_green]

Second oil change for me, every 20 hrs so far. Both times the cart oils come out darker then the outer oil but doesn't appear contaminated

 

[Jakobi]

If I had to guess I'd say its the inner surface of the cart thats wearing. Dark oil I expect, but this stuff is nasty. Wiping a surface clean with a rag leaves a big dark smear on it.

This side also has the needle tip on the rebound adj rod which appears to be poorly peened and does turn a bit. I wonder if it has something to do with it.

Last service I swapped the cart from one fork to the other to determine if it was the outer or inner causing the contamination, and it seems to be inner at this stage.

Cleaned everything up and inspected really well. Multiple scores within the cartridge where the ICS piston moves, with the worst of them being deep enough to catch a nail on. Only visible when completely clean and in the right light though. So thats me done. I'm not even going to bother wasting my time trying to find out what price they put on a cartridge (unless if someone in the know wants to check). Going by the price of their compression valve service kit (2 bushings and a few orings), the cart will be out of this world dear. I could try and have a machine shop hone it and be done with the coating all together, or I could look into recoating but again $$$. I don't know, where to go, and frankly don't have the time or patience to be dealing with it.

My feelings are that contamination has been introduced by the circlip under the spring seat. After I first noticed the contamination I noticed the spring seat was looser and there was some swarf, but I didn't recall seeing this scoring. Then again, I may not have got it in the right light.

I'll probably just pull the Sachs legs and TTX off the other bike for now. They are great to ride and have stood up to more than sweet FA hours. I'm somewhat unimpressed.. I could cry..

 

[n_green]

Definitely sucks. Is this the same problem Glenn had on the Beta zokes?

 

[Jakobi]

Negative.

Glenn had issues with the coating on the outer fork wearing due to a lack of tolerance in the bushland. Terry has addressed this on yours, but that does not appear to be an issue on mine. If it were the case I'd be seeing contamination in the same leg after swapping the carts over.

Its got me stumped as there is a very deep gouge (right through the anodizing) as well as several other smaller shallow ones, all in the area where the ICS piston floats. The real odd thing is that the piston, the o-rings, and the bushing all show no damage that would correlate with what I'm seeing on the inner surface.

Its really doing my head in. I love the way these forks perform, and that they are so easy to work on. I'm happy with the valving and was only seeing it get more fine tuned as the hours add up. I see this as a major set back. I'm not keen in pumping dollars back into these after both hearing and experiencing issues. The build quality is just not there.. but I also don't particularly want to fanny about sourcing Yamaha parts to do a complete front end change.

 

[wence]

Jake, if it makes you feel any better , mine will no doubt be the same .
Had a fork seal start to weep the other day and the oil was dark grey also.
When I was getting these set up for Finke the tuner said that there was excessive wear then???
I know how you feel.
Cheers Mark

 

[Jakobi]

Doesn't make me feel any better at all Mark. Did your tuner have any more specific info on where they noted the wear? Under 100hrs on a set of fork is a joke. Most forks will stand up to 100hrs of abuse without even being serviced.

I don't see any way out of this other than dropping big dollars on it. I think as an interim fix I may just clean up the scoring the best I can (or consider having a machine shop hone it out) and riding them until they're fully trashed. Or I could throw my other TTX setup Sachs on and ride on! They work a treat.

Then its just a matter of finding some good condition KYB SSS forks to purchase.

 

[wence]

I reckon it was where the bushes themselves were in the fork but am not sure .
I will pull mine down for a service soon and I'll let you know more. As I said , I know they are due as the colour is real dark grey.
Cheers Mark

 

[Moto7man]

Doesn't make me feel any better at all Mark. Did your tuner have any more specific info on where they noted the wear? Under 100hrs on a set of fork is a joke. Most forks will stand up to 100hrs of abuse without even being serviced.

I don't see any way out of this other than dropping big dollars on it. I think as an interim fix I may just clean up the scoring the best I can (or consider having a machine shop hone it out) and riding them until they're fully trashed. Or I could throw my other TTX setup Sachs on and ride on! They work a treat.

Then its just a matter of finding some good condition KYB SSS forks to purchase.

Just a suggestion, you might want to send an email to Drew Smith at WER(Works Enduro Rider) and explain the andozing problem et al. He might have a solution or suggestion, he seems to be very knowledgeable on the Zokes.

mail@werproducts.net

 

[Jakobi]

Just a suggestion, you might want to send an email to Drew Smith at WER(Works Enduro Rider) and explain the andozing problem et al. He might have a solution or suggestion, he seems to be very knowledgeable on the Zokes.

mail@werproducts.net

Done. I've put out feelers in a few directions, but one big thing to consider is that I'm in Australia, and a somewhat remote part of it at that. Even just sending parts around the state the dollars add up quickly and thats before you begin to factor in work being done.

Ultimately I need to find the source of the damage, and to what extent. Its pointless having them recoated if its only going to continue to happen.

I'm pretty confident that by moving the cart from one leg to another that I've ruled out it being the lower/inner bushing causing wear on the uppers and then fouling the cartridge. What I need to do is try and find a better way of inspecting the inside of the cart with detail. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the wear is occurring within the range of the mid valve piston on those surfaces and that the damage around the ICS piston is just a continuation caused by contaminants from the process.

 

[Moto7man]

Do you think this is a design problem or a production problem? If this is a production problem it could be limited to a specific number of machines(i.e. fork assemblies). Maybe a new thread is needed to see if anyone else is having this problem?

 

[Jakobi]

Do you think this is a design problem or a production problem? If this is a production problem it could be limited to a specific number of machines(i.e. fork assemblies). Maybe a new thread is needed to see if anyone else is having this problem?

Lets wait and see what Mark finds when he does his. I think he had his bushing areas relieved by Terry Hays too.

Basically the function and design of the fork leaves some to be desired. The ICS piston and its shape is less than ideal and traps air which is hard to purge. The PFP concept in theory is great, but poorly implemented with fine threads and delicate orings. The circlips with sharp edges on the preload adjustment. The soft edge on the PFP where the bleed screw installs is easily damaged. The bushing tolerances are questionable and others on Betas have noted wear issues with bushings and the upper fork coating. Even the way the rebound needle is crimped onto the rod is a dodgy/poor setup, and the way you need to so carefully position all the threads to achieve the 26 clicks range of adjustment is also a pain in the anoose.

The next problem (or action of the fork) is that anything that does wear/contaminate the oil then sinks to the bottom of the fork. In my instance I'm sure it was swarf from where the spring sit had turned on the preload circlip and a sharp edge had removed some material. Once at the bottom of the fork anything sitting in the bottoming cone is a prime candidate to be pushed under pressure up past the seal and into the chamber. They do circulate oil in this way, and purge out the top as pressures rise deep in the stroke. So this is wearing the oil, piston band, etc as it does that, until its spat out the other end and the cycle continues.

The third issue from what I understand is that the anodizing itself only appears to be a generic T2 coating as opposed to a hardcoat T3. Once the wear starts, it continues.. and so does the cycle of destruction.

All the above gives me very little trust in replacing or repairing the internals, with the feeling that anything I do will only really be a temporary fix. In the meantime I'm considering letting them eat themselves. They have been cleaned, cleaned again, flushed and cleaned some more. I found some aluminum flecks imbedded into the piston band, some light marking deep in the chamber where it runs, and then the heavy scoring up at the ICS spring. The cart is a write off.

Above all, factor in the short service intervals, and the outrageous price of consumables (if you can even find a source for them) and the only real advantage the Marzocchis have over Sachs are that they do work well when they are working. For the long haul I'm thinking something more sustainable will be a better solution, but will take time to implement properly.

 

[swazi_matt]

That is not good news, glad i (and the bank manager!) decided to upgrade the existing bike with kyb's rather than replace with new.

I seem to remember there being quite a few threads similar to this but on the 45 zokes

 

[Jakobi]

That is not good news, glad i (and the bank manager!) decided to upgrade the existing bike with kyb's rather than replace with new.

I seem to remember there being quite a few threads similar to this but on the 45 zokes

True that Matt. I'll be walking a similar path I feel. But surely I can get another 20hrs out of these

 

[Jakobi]

So just so you blokes know I'm not singing and dancing over some slightly darker oil.. Here is what I found

Lovely contaminated oil

The crap was coating everything

And its hard to see down the cartridge let alone take a picture, but with a torch from the bottom you can kind of see some of the wear streaks. Big ones are on the rhs.