2018 300ec starter issues
- Thread starter Sky
- Start date
farmerj
Platinum Level Site Supporter
This was a great post. Your thoughts on the "pinion shaft & bendix not running parallel" make a lot of sense to me. Everything can spin freely by hand on my bike, but when torque is applied binding occurs.
Do you think there could be problems in the case side as well as the sloppy cover housings? (maybe this is what you're getting at with "fitting a bush into each end of the bendix shaft housing"). Love the new Rieju cover (and Ebay option) - just wondering if this will be "the solution" or if slop on the other end is contributing to the problem as well...
Jeff
gg3
Silver Level Site Supporter
Thanks,has been a PITA.
You are right on with the case side bendix shaft housing.
I have ordered some oilless bushes for both ends & will machine the bendix shaft down to fit.Machining the case & cover for a bearing is a much better solution but I'm looking for the easiest & cheapest way for anyone to do it.Much easier to pop the bendix out,get an engineer to take 1mm off the shaft each end,tap the bushes in,job done......well that's the plan?
You are right on with the case side bendix shaft housing.
I have ordered some oilless bushes for both ends & will machine the bendix shaft down to fit.Machining the case & cover for a bearing is a much better solution but I'm looking for the easiest & cheapest way for anyone to do it.Much easier to pop the bendix out,get an engineer to take 1mm off the shaft each end,tap the bushes in,job done......well that's the plan?
blitz11
Silver Level Site Supporter
No, just Russian style as we say. Plain aluminium used as bearing.
They would have failed my mechanical design class!
Gasser Nate
New member
Plenty of old bikes run cam shafts in plain aluminium castings with no issues for tens of thousands of kilometres. The issue is lubrication. Grease just is not good enough, gets flung off and never to be seen again. Everyone needs to get on the wet mod. Works wonders.
Lubrication plus exact fitment. The Bendix cover and its plain bearings may work if the shafts of the pinion and bendix would be perfectly aligned.
Having an old sarter armature inserted while tightening the bendix cover was an eye opener...
farmerj
Platinum Level Site Supporter
FYI all -
One other place where binding can happen is between Pinion Gear (#17) and Starter Gear (#20). I have seen the two gears mesh too tightly, so that when you spin them by hand they feel "notchy" vs. spinning smoothly.
What happens is that if you have a hard time getting the Starter shaft splines into the Starter Gear and use force (i.e., a rubber mallet or equivalent on the end of the Starter), it can push the two gears closer together making them hard to turn.
It does not seem like this should happen, because the Starter Gear bottoms out onto a machined lip. But there is a slight amount of play between the machined lip and the circlip on the other side.
I have inserted a thin punch between the gears when installing the Starter to make sure this doesn't happen.
Jeff
One other place where binding can happen is between Pinion Gear (#17) and Starter Gear (#20). I have seen the two gears mesh too tightly, so that when you spin them by hand they feel "notchy" vs. spinning smoothly.
What happens is that if you have a hard time getting the Starter shaft splines into the Starter Gear and use force (i.e., a rubber mallet or equivalent on the end of the Starter), it can push the two gears closer together making them hard to turn.
It does not seem like this should happen, because the Starter Gear bottoms out onto a machined lip. But there is a slight amount of play between the machined lip and the circlip on the other side.
I have inserted a thin punch between the gears when installing the Starter to make sure this doesn't happen.
Jeff
farmerj
Platinum Level Site Supporter
I think the options for that issue are:
(1) Try to buy a new Rieju bendix cover (with the bearings) as in the picture above.
(2) Purchase the cover with bearings offered on Ebay as mentioned earlier in this thread.
(3) Wait for gg3 to perfect his mod (install bushings in existing areas and machine Bendix & Pinion shafts to fit).
One other idea, which I intend to post on more fully at some point, is to go with a 24V starting system. The extra power from doing this overcomes deficiencies in the gear drive system. My dealer has done 3 bikes like this. His battery solution is the "new news" as far as I am concerned - Antigravity makes a "small case" battery, and two of them will fit in the original GG battery compartment, stacked on one another. Wire up the second battery between starter solenoid and starter, and good to go!
https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-401/
Did your starter work before you replaced gears/bearings/AS3 cover?
Farmer J. I believe my problem may be the pinion gear and starter gear relationship as you suggested. When I removed my old starter gear and bearing it came out as 1 pressed together unit. When I marry my new gear and bearing it is a very loose fit. My parts supplier said just put some grease to hold them together while you are pressing in new bearing and that it would be fine. After pressing in new bearing with gear, I am able to physically push the gear up and down slightly with my finger. I would think that having up and down play with the gear would be a BAD thing. Am I overthinking this?
My starter worked previously. 2019 xc300. Bought bike with 20 hours. Shortly thereafter it starter have the binding symptoms and being dumb I kept stabbing the button and blew the starter motor. Replaced with OEM unit and had 20 hours of trouble free riding. It started binding again so I bought a new motor, took everything apart to clean and grease, reinstalled with new motor and had 0 improvement. So I bought new gears, bearings, and AS3 cover. Which bring me to today.
Just found this video from 2015 when trying to understand your idea of doubling voltage. Look correct?
https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1155753-24-volt-starting-for-gncc/
farmerj
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Iakovos, the picture in the video in that thread is correct, there are other suggestions to pass on (the RC battery isn't a good idea).
Try this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goO4VHemPbY
And this diagram:
https://store.schnitzracing.com/24-volt-starter-wiring-diagram/
It's actually very simple.
FYI without adding additional relays, you will have to charge the second battery externally (after each ride or two) because it won't be charged automatically - but your bike is likely to start well, if not instantly.
There are instances where the extra voltage is hard on the EC start switch, and requires replacement. The XC models' start switch is more robust. Some argue that the extra voltage is hard on the starter. Others argue that it is easier on the starter - better than making the engine turn over multiple times without actually starting (grind or bind).
So while I am advocating this as an option, I cannot speak to its reliability. KTM guys have done it for years - but I don't want to be the cause of having your new starter burn out either; they are expensive and I have limited personal experience!
Jeff
farmerj
Platinum Level Site Supporter
You might be overthinking this - but I do not know. I would think that if there is a small amount of play, the gears can find a "happy spot" - better than too tight. Of course, too loose would cause binding as well!
Where did your new starter motor come from? I am convinced that they are not all equal. The best one is from Rieju. They have a new manufacturer, I believe - Mitsuba (thanks Doc) - and perform better than the last round of GasGas starters and better than the cheap alternatives. They cost $220 though!
Jeff
Last edited:
farmerj
Platinum Level Site Supporter
You guys are "nailing it" over on the Thumpertalk GG starter thread! Awesome work!
A couple of comments in addition to what I have written above:
(1) A 24V starting system is not an ideal fix, it is an option that overpowers the binding. Better to fix the underlying binding issues if you can. But if you can't, it's better to have a bike that starts than one that doesn't and may be worth a try
(2) My dealer installed a new Rieju starter in my bike recently and I could not believe it - the bike starts instantly! (At least, it did for a day and a half of riding until my battery went dead from a lighting system draw).
This is after three "less expensive" starters. I have had them apart, and the OEM starters have a needle bearing on the drive end end of the armature shaft. The cheaper ones use a bronze bushing. So there are some quality differences. My take - if you can get the Starter drive system sorted so that there is no binding, the less expensive starters may work (good news on TT) and would be the way to go! If things aren't perfect, in my experience (& that of my dealer) the OEM starter is stronger.
However, it is also possible that some other factor is at work. The only thing that was changed on my bike was the starter. And I have had less expensive starters that would grind into a piece of wood and appeared to have power, but wouldn't turn over my bike. It is possible that upon starter assembly the force of insertion changes something in the position of drive gear #20 for better or worse. It could be that this most recent "success" was due to that...but I think it was the starter itself. I intend to fit a new Rieju bendix cover to increase the longevity of the system.
fwiw,
Jeff
A couple of comments in addition to what I have written above:
(1) A 24V starting system is not an ideal fix, it is an option that overpowers the binding. Better to fix the underlying binding issues if you can. But if you can't, it's better to have a bike that starts than one that doesn't and may be worth a try
(2) My dealer installed a new Rieju starter in my bike recently and I could not believe it - the bike starts instantly! (At least, it did for a day and a half of riding until my battery went dead from a lighting system draw).
This is after three "less expensive" starters. I have had them apart, and the OEM starters have a needle bearing on the drive end end of the armature shaft. The cheaper ones use a bronze bushing. So there are some quality differences. My take - if you can get the Starter drive system sorted so that there is no binding, the less expensive starters may work (good news on TT) and would be the way to go! If things aren't perfect, in my experience (& that of my dealer) the OEM starter is stronger.
However, it is also possible that some other factor is at work. The only thing that was changed on my bike was the starter. And I have had less expensive starters that would grind into a piece of wood and appeared to have power, but wouldn't turn over my bike. It is possible that upon starter assembly the force of insertion changes something in the position of drive gear #20 for better or worse. It could be that this most recent "success" was due to that...but I think it was the starter itself. I intend to fit a new Rieju bendix cover to increase the longevity of the system.
fwiw,
Jeff
You guys are "nailing it" over on the Thumpertalk GG starter thread! Awesome work!
A couple of comments in addition to what I have written above:
(1) A 24V starting system is not an ideal fix, it is an option that overpowers the binding. Better to fix the underlying binding issues if you can. But if you can't, it's better to have a bike that starts than one that doesn't and may be worth a try
(2) My dealer installed a new Rieju starter in my bike recently and I could not believe it - the bike starts instantly! (At least, it did for a day and a half of riding until my battery went dead from a lighting system draw).
This is after three "less expensive" starters. I have had them apart, and the OEM starters have a needle bearing on the drive end end of the armature shaft. The cheaper ones use a bronze bushing. So there are some quality differences. My take - if you can get the Starter drive system sorted so that there is no binding, the less expensive starters may work (good news on TT) and would be the way to go! If things aren't perfect, in my experience (& that of my dealer) the OEM starter is stronger.
However, it is also possible that some other factor is at work. The only thing that was changed on my bike was the starter. And I have had less expensive starters that would grind into a piece of wood and appeared to have power, but wouldn't turn over my bike. It is possible that upon starter assembly the force of insertion changes something in the position of drive gear #20 for better or worse. It could be that this most recent "success" was due to that...but I think it was the starter itself. I intend to fit a new Rieju bendix cover to increase the longevity of the system.
fwiw,
Jeff
Thanks Jeff. This is all very good information. I tend to agree with you. 24v should not be necessary. I believe I have everything in good working order mechanically. I have replaced bearings, gears, pinion, AS3 cover and now the bendix. I am also thinking along the line that the aftermarket starter has something to do with it. I also am now suspecting my battery. I?m going to test a couple more things that don?t require me to spend money and if I can?t figure it out I?m going to take it to my dealer. They are very good and know GG bikes, just not very close.
GasGas
New member
I installed a 240 cranking amp battery from Anti Gravity Batteries and all my starting issues are gone like magic. 8 cell AG-801. They also have a 12 cell that fits and has 340 cranking amps.
Very interesting. Have you confirmed the 12 cell fits. I see it?s dimensions are slightly larger.
FarmerJ - TT forum is getting excited about 24v idea.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWh-92FVzl8
GasGas
New member
No I have not confirmed that. I do believe it's all about the cranking amps not the volts. My bike starts like the bike in the video with the 8 cell battery. It smaller in size than the stock battery but has 2 times the cranking amps. It also cold starts the bike at 0 degrees C or 32 degree F for you guys down south. Not instantly like in the video, but decent enough for that temp. Then once it runs for minute, it will fire as soon as you touch the button.
