First Post: Locked up EC 200... curse of the new plastic?

mlyle11

New member
Hi all,
I've been viewing and learning from the forum for some time now, I guess it's my turn to step into the fray!
I bought a 2002 EC 200 a few months back. It's been a great bike so far, and is my first exotic, added to a stable of the KDX's. It has the gold Marz fronts and Ohlin's rear, a knarly pipe, FMF end, a 250 top end and strock 200 crank so its a 225, and has been running like a beast... until... I put on brand new blue plastics on (dealer going out of business, reclad the whole bike minus the headlight, for 180!). The old yellow plastics must have been jealous of the shiny new blue and cursed me.... it sure looked good a few hours! I attached a shot of my blue girl... all locked up and sad!


The plastics weren't the cause of course, I suspect a piston seizure, but's won't know for sure till I'm back home in my garage. I'm on vacation in Northern Michigan, and didn't want to tear it down too far.

My 14 year old was riding it (that could be the cause!) and said he came to an idle, heard a funny sound, and it died. Then the kick starter "wouldn't move". I went out and drug it back with the KDX (good ole green beast just never dies - 1980 KDX175 :D). Indeed the kick lever would not spin AT ALL. The rear tire would not turn over the engine, it just skidded in the dirt. I only tried once for fear of further damage.

Back at camp, I pulled the ignition cover, all looked good. The engine seemed so locked that I was hoping that a bolt backed out of something and just locked her up. With the plug out I was able to turn the ignition flywheel (17mm nut) back about 90-120 degrees or so, then it locks again. I can then move forward with the nut or the kick lever, to the the point where it locks again. I took the clutch cover off for quick look as well. All was good and seemed in order. The case oil was drained and there was nothing to unusual in the oil, a few fibers, nothing more. The coolant is full, the plug is maybe a little lean, slightly brighter than the the mocha we all hunt for, but I have been trying for a few months to dial this plug in. I was running yama lube 2S at 32:1. The yama lube was an "emergency" use as we ran out the Bel Ray synthetic we usually run. I've used yama lube in my KDX's before, and it was all my cousin had on hand. I don't suspect the oil, but stranger things have happened.

I will be back home next week and start the major tear down. I want to do the following before I open it up to far.
1. Check the water pump impellar - I'ver heard they can jam up.
2. Pull the exhaust and get an eye on the piston and PV.
3. Pull the main clutch cover and take a look at the kick gears, PV gear, etc.

If these steps don't offer any clues, I think I will pull the jug in chassis. It looks very doable. Plastic off, tank out, may pull the radiators, and it seems very accessible.

If it's the top end, I will tackle it in my garage. I'm a little heasitant to go into the bottom half, though I have split my KDX's open before. I do have a shop manual for an 03, it all seems about the same as any other bick. But I'm a typical work aholic, and have little time for majore repair until winter. I have a good dealer near my home (Hall's in Springfield). They seem very capable, and reasonable. The also want to sell me 2011 six days ;)

Do I seem to be headed down the right path here? Anyone know of any issues with the 250 top end on a 200 bottom? The bike came with the 200 piston, jug, and head. They are in good shape, so I may just go back to the 200. This thing had all the power in the world as it was, it really kicks (or should I say... kicked).
 

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200 Bore x stroke 62,5 x 65 mm
250 Bore x stroke 66,4 x 72 mm

Let us know what kind of damage you find once you start digging.
 
From your description, I would guess a crank stuffer bolt or bolts backed out. This would allow the crank to move more than half way back and forth before locking again.

A 225? Thats a first. If your correct it must be a custom because the 250 cyl does not drop on the 200 cases. The stroke IS different.
 
uhmm, a 200/250/300 all use the same cases. I'm thinking the 225 would be using a stock 200 crank. The jug was likely decked and ported.

I like the creative 225 solution. Why wouldn't one choose a 250 crank over costly 225 cylinder mods? just sayin'
 
From your description, I would guess a crank stuffer bolt or bolts backed out. This would allow the crank to move more than half way back and forth before locking again.

GMP is probably right, happened to my 04 200. Rebuilt it and no issues since.
 
200 cases are NOT exactly the same. They are BASED on the 250/300 and appear to be the same externally. Many subtle differences like bearing bore sizes.
 
The cases may have started out the same, but they get machined to fit the different crank, I had mine apart this morning, looked factory with all that machined aliminium :p
 
Back from vacation - tearing into it tonight!

I'm finally back to my garage and ready to get this thing apart. I hope it's not toasted too bad, but it does sound like the crank bolts.

Regarding the 225, that's the story I was told when I bought it. He said they put a 250 piston and jug on it at the dealer a few years back. I have all the original parts as well. They also put in a crank stuffer then. He said they didn't change the crank so it had a 200 stroke and 250 piston thus the 225. My math aint so good no more and it was plum too much cipherin fer me!

It looks like they used three gaskets between the case and jug. Spacing issues with the 250 jug? I attached a picture of the set up. I also attached a scan of the last repair from the dealer. It has the piston size, but I couldn't cross reference it anywhere.

I hope it's not the bottom end. I have a manual, but I don't trust myself to split the cases. I would on my old KDX, but this bike is too nice for me to screw up. It might be fun to try though. With this great resource behind I just might give it a try. I have rebuilt automotive engines, carbs, a few transmission here and there, but never anything where I had to split a case apart. Plus that was a LONG time ago, back when I had man hands with lots a grease under the nails!

Thanks for all the insight thus far!
 

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Piston Size

According to the reciept (sorry - the attachement is hard to read). The piston that was installed at the dealer is a 7542P6634. I can't cross this piston, but I think the numbers after the P are the piston OD or bore ID. Makes sense.

66.34 MM or some such... thus at least a 250 top half.

As this is my first GG rodeo, the whole bike could be a EC250! I will check the VIN and title tonight... duh! Lot's of the part numbers in general on the bike have the code for a 250. I understand however that many of the part were interchangeable, and the factory tried to commonize or just use what ever when they ran out. I also don't know the full history on the bike. I

The Jug comes off tonight! I will try and set up a picture hosting site so you can see the good in more detail.

Have a great weekend all!
 
There are some #s stamped on the engine by the shift shaft.
You'll see "EC300, EC200,or EC250" mixed in.
 
Into the engine I go!

Everything is pulled away so I can have a good go at the engine. I have a few numbers now. The head is stamped ME25 30916000, and the case (L) by the shift shaft is stamped EC20 01D110552. So it looks like a 200 bottom and 250 top. There are no numbers on the jug, though there is nice flat machined spot just aft of the carb, but it only has an "A" stamped in it. I'm excited to tear into it further! I'll post later tonight or tomorrow on what I see once the top end is off!

Thanks! :D
 
Appears to be the crank or rod

The top end came off nice. Everything looked really good. Clean piston, jug in real good shape, even the PV was very clean and working well. The gasket between the jug and case was on it's last leg, but still holding. Another season and it would have dumped coolant into the case.

In my first post I said the engine only moved about 90 degrees before it would lock up. I see what is at least the symptom of this. The rod does not move freely on the crank. The crank moves with easy, but since the rod (crank end) seems frozen, it hits the case. Of course this is with the top half off. When the top was on it would just stop with the piston in the cylinder.

Not sure what this could be now, or if I have the courage to dig any deeper. It looks like I can send the engine out to either Halls or up north to Keytime. Either one will be 400-600 bucks. I could do this for around 100 in parts assuming no major crank damage. I can get a 200CC running engine on it;t way from Cali for $450 bucks as well. Of course used engines have their own set of headaches too!

Any ideas on what has seized the rod? The lower rod bearing? The nylon spacers? Seems pretty simple from the crank view, but getting inside seems like a head ache. I have no desire to create a basket case!!!

Thanks again all!
 
Well, if you don't see the bolts holding the nylon crank stuffers backed out and hitting the rod, its obviously a seized/partially seized lower rod bearing. Being we don't know exactly what this bike is or what was done to it, its anyone's guess as to what happened. In any case its a complete tear down and crank rebuild at the minimum.
 
Verdict is in. The lower rod bearing is toast. I should have heard this coming, but my son was riding at the time. Also, it's been awhile since I've been listening closely to a 2T! Lesson learned. No excuses.

I was able to pull upward on the rod, which freed it up to rotate. There is no side to side play, but the up/down play is awful. I wouldn't be surprised if they are not needle bearings in the bottom of the case. There is probably 2-3mm of slop. Thus I should have known. It has been noisy since I bought it. I should have pulled the top half to check the rod just after I bought it, but riding fever had me and the boys, and we were just too excited to care about the heavy stuff... now here I sit with big repair ahead.

So the final poll is do I do this myself or take it to the dealer. If I open the case, I might as well do everything.

I trust Hall's, a Husky buddy of mine has had them do his work for years, and he's an AMA ranked hair scramble addict. The other dealer, Keytime seems good too.

If I go to the dealer, is it best to put it all back together or just take it as is?

Do I take them just the engine or the whole bike?

I was thinking just the engine, because while it's done I was going to do all the chassis bearings, brakes, and fork seals. It'll be like new when done!

I've become an official donater to the riders now! Best money spent in a long time. Thanks for all the help and comments!

Mike
 
Take just the engine. That will give you a chance to go through the chassis and clean repack/grease in all the linkages/bearings ect. If you have only owned the bike for 2 months or so and don't have the history of how it was taken care of this will give you piece of mind and you will be surprised at the difference in feel that a freshly serviced bike makes.
 
Your lucky you didn't suck bearing debris into the top end and trash the cyl and head. I'm still curious as to what this engine is and what exactly was done to it.
 
As far as I can tell, the previous owner bought a 250 top end and piston and simply installed it on the EC200 case. The con rod has made in Japan on one side and VESRAH 5001 on the other. This appears to be a CR 250 rod, which is correct per the cross over list. I'm adding a few pictures of the debacle now, plus I am linking to a video on You Tube. I expect it to go viral soon! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nylLc8eX-0g

I also started a google web page to start tracking all my projects on. It will be about like this post, updated at the speed of life!
https://sites.google.com/site/parproautoresearch/home
 
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